Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what?

I lived in Harrisburg when the Dwyer affair occurred. I was only 10 yrs old, but I do remember the day he shot himself.

I was at a friends house after school and when their father came home, he turned on the TV and told us all to get lost. When someone asked, he said that something happened that day that wasn’t appropriate for us to watch. At the time us kids didn’t really care, we ran down to the basement. It was only later we heard the adults talking about it and realized that a state politician had shot himself during a press conference. I never asked any questions about it, but I think the general consensus around it was that it was assumed he was guilty.

I didn’t think about it at all until the internet age and someone here or on Fark referencing the shooting. I looked it up on wikipedia and read the details of the case for the first time. I can’t and won’t watch the video.

A more recent notorious example: Kenneth Lay - Wikipedia

Actually, you can make a hell of a case that he was innocent, because based on the evidence, he was. The guy who was almost single-handedly responsible for his conviction admitted that he framed Dwyer up. That pretty much closes the book on his guilt.

I don’t know that I swallow the ‘confession’. I’m believing less, and less of these post conviction coming clean and finally telling the truth stories. They always seem too contrived/convenient/etc… for my taste.

Here’s some points made in favor of Budd:

Source

Documentary

No opinion on Dwyer’s guilt or innocence, but this:

…reeks of special pleading to me. I don’t think “a jury of one’s peers” is supposed to mean “people knowledgeable about the nuances of one’s profession.”

Iamah, you are obviously committed to the idea of Dwyer’s innocence, but if that’s the best you’ve got, it’s pretty unpersuasive.

The fact that it is possible to claim that a person had a motive to lie is hardly conclusive evidence that they did lie. In practically every trial, the defence claims the witnesses have a motive to lie. Doesn’t mean they are. Doesn’t mean they aren’t, either. But people are convicted all the time on the evidence of insiders who roll over for a plea bargain. You have to take that fact into account when assessing their evidence, but it’s hardly definitive.

Your argument about Torquato assumes he was telling the truth. If so, then the Smiths’ account of Ryan’s involvement is not a late invention made up to attract the prosecutors. Moreover, it is a pretty weak plan for the Smiths to peddle a scheme to take money that apparently needs Dwyer to be involved when he is not. It’s not impossible, but it makes the risks very high, and therefore that version of events unlikely.

As to physical evidence, you typically don’t see much beyond formal exhibits in cases like this unless there is an undercover operation, which I gather there wasn’t.

Your claims about the judge sound pretty conspiratorial. An acquittal would surely splash less mud on the governor (who i assume was a Republican, or else why would the judge be trying to protect him at the expense of the fellow Republican Dwyer?) I am unpersuaded by opinion pieces by some journalist.

I am not sure what you mean by “delivering” the contract. if you mean signing off on it, then I agree that fact alone means nothing by itself in the absence of evidence that he manipulated the process to get it. But your concession that this was a favour for powerful men does not sound like a process based on merit to me.

if you mean personally physically delivering the contract to the other party, when he was state Treasurer in charge of billions, then that is pretty incriminating, and your explanation sounds like special pleading. Importantly, how could the Smiths, who were apparently peddling a scheme that needed Dwyer’s involvement but did not have it (on the innocence hypothesis) have been so fortunate as to have Dwyer appear to behave as though he was involved? The fact that it is not illegal per se to deliver the contract is not to the point at all.

And your argument that the jury was not one made up of his peers because it had no political insiders is absurd.

It doesn’t advance your argument to say why Smith was after a payoff. There is little doubt that he was, and greed is a sufficient explanation. The question is not whether Smith was greedy, it is whether Dwyer was greedy too.

Juries always get a much more granular look at the evidence than just sweeping assertions and generalities, and would have heard practically all the arguments you make professionally advanced. They rejected them. And late recantings by witnesses aren’t accepted on face value-they require close examination.

All in all, he might be innocent. So might Manson. Or any other convict. But once a jury has convicted, you’ve got to do better than this to demonstrate factual innocence, for mine.

The problem with this sort of thing is that those sorts of arguments are all opinions, interpretations of the facts and not facts themselves. You could just as easily frame things in a way that suggests guilt. “Q: Why would an innocent man commit suicide? A: Clearly, it was evidence of his guilty mind. Q: Why would Smith plead guilty if no crime occurred” etc. I’m not making those arguments, I’m just saying that spin doesn’t help get to the answer.

What you have in this case, as in many cases, is a handful of evidence, some of it contradictory and a bunch of witnesses who all have changed their stories over time. Truth is a matter of interpretation, not science.

What about when that person admits to lying? Is that more or less conclusive?

When a witness makes a plea bargain (or similar deal) to testify, is the jury allowed to know that fact? If I were on any jury in general, I think I wouldn’t take any such testimony very seriously. I would want to base my verdict entirely, as much as possibly, on any other evidence.

So he’s got that goin’ for him.

Be very rare that they weren’t told. Police and prosecutors are well aware that there is a credibility cloud over such people, and are conscious of the risk of giving the prize to the wrong guy. They rarely do plea bargains in exchange for testimony unless there are good reasons to believe. And you tend to find in such cases that the evidence sort of all merges together into the one narrative. The other evidence that you speak of justifies you believing the rollover witness, not ignoring him.

I thought it was clear those are not my points, I quoted them from someone who claims that was at the trial. I saw the same points being made on the documentary in favor of Dwyer.

Obviously I cannot tell if he was innocent or not, but it is my personal opinion there was little respect for Presumption of innocence(the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies).

Yes, and the state apparently met this burden of proof and convicted him.

@Boyo Jim
But the justice system is capable of mistakes. That’s the sole reason why presumption of innocence is important. There are even cases of innocents executed by the justice.

But I’m sorry to waste your time, I’m leaving for good.

To end on a better note, I think this guy’s blog post does a better job making this whole discussion into something productive:

I don’t see the logic in your statement. His suicide doesn’t suggest a guilty conscience, but is more suggestive of the opposite. If he were guilty he would probably know he was getting what he deserved. If, on the other hand, he were innocent, he would probably feel that an enormous injustice were being done to him, which seems to certainly be the suggestion in his final speech. It seems to have been more than he could stand, and I’m inclined to add that to the list of reasons that I personally tend to think he was not guilty, but I don’t know all the details of the case, so I can’t really say.

Judge Muir, however, seems to have been a very dicey person to have presided over the case. From what I know of him, I would tend to hold any but the most routine cases he presided over to be very suspect.

The problem with the Dwyer case is the practice of plea bargaining. Prosecutors give witnesses tremendous incentive to lie in order to receive lesser sentences. Under those circumstances, witnesses will frequently tell prosecutors whatever they want to hear in order to earn favor. That was obviously at play in Dwyer’s case, and the truth is that the prosecutors (and, in this case, even the judge) were more suspect than the defendant.

This literally is a zombie as the OP was about a dead guy. :eek:

Yeah, dastardlybill, please note that you’re responding to a post from more than two years ago.

He’s lied before so maybe he’s lying about lying.