# Was Bush or Obama a better president for pro-gun people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855 "2016-08-05T17:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/121 "2016-08-23T18:53:38Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > You can’t deny the Australian measures achieved their intended purpose, to significantly reduce gun deaths, and they did it without barring Ozzies from buying guns. They did it without “ending their freedom forever” or “destroying all the freedoms and values we care about most”, without “banning every gun, destroying every magazine” or “banning your ammunition–all of it”. Neither did they “come after every bit of their freedom” nor “implement the tyranny of King George”. The US has had a significant reduction of gun deaths during the same time which hints at a larger reason, not strictly the legislation that was passed in Australia. No laws were passed in the US, nothing banned, yet homicides involving firearms dropped significantly. I’ve heard everything from the baby boomers aging, to the removal of lead in gasoline. > [@](#): > > If the NRA is serious about reducing gun violence as they say, you’d think they’d welcome Australian-type measures. Not only did they work, but _none of the NRA’s worst fears came to pass._ I’d expect to hear a collective sigh of relief from them instead of a continuing flow of fiery Doomsday rhetoric. The results of the legislation before and that passed in 96 are completely unacceptable to the average NRA member. Entire classes of firearms are no longer available, licenses to own guns are at the discretion of local authorities based upon perceived need, etc. Those are exactly the NRA’s worst fears about doomsday. Not being a gun owner, it’s easy to understand why you don’t get it. > [@](#): > > It makes one question their real motivation, does it not? You’d almost think they’re more concerned with instilling fear into Americans so they’ll buy more guns. Actually, its so they can sell more memberships. I think I mentioned that earlier. If there was not a threat to firearm ownership in the US, the NRA would cease to exist. > [@](#): > > If that trend continues, the U.S. will be on a par with Switzerland and Canada in about, oh, let’s say 3000, and Australia in about 4000. Keep up the good work, America!🙂 It is a notable improvement without a law being passed, nor a gun being banned. > [@](#): > > Now you acknowledge that the NRA lies for political reasons as if you knew all along. Makes me wonder why you asked for cites.😉 I was just wondering if you were really into this discussion or making things up. Yes, the NRA lies and exaggerates to instill fear into the members and would be members to bring in more funds. They are not unique in this endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/122 "2016-08-23T18:56:43Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Okay, I’ll play along. Take all the time you need to go through them. No doubt it will take a while for a member of the NRA who knows the secret handshake to absorb all this new information that the NRA leadership has been saying for years.😉 Yes, the NRA lies and exaggerates to instill fear into the members and would be members to bring in more funds. They are not unique in this endeavor and I hope we are done with this discussion. Thanks for the cites. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/123 "2016-08-23T19:21:20Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Yes, the NRA lies and exaggerates to instill fear into the members and would be members to bring in more funds. They are not unique in this endeavor and I hope we are done with this discussion. Thanks for the cites. I’ll add that I will be AFK for a few days. I’m not avoiding you. I’ll catch up Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/124 "2016-08-27T07:28:42Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I’ll add that I will be AFK for a few days. I’m not avoiding you. I’ll catch up Sunday. Thanks for letting me know, and for staying with this. > [@JXJohns](#): > > The US has had a significant reduction of gun deaths during the same time which hints at a larger reason, not strictly the legislation that was passed in Australia. No laws were passed in the US, nothing banned, yet homicides involving firearms dropped significantly. I’ve heard everything from the baby boomers aging, to the removal of lead in gasoline. > … > > It is a notable improvement without a law being passed, nor a gun being banned. Wasn’t there a gun ban of some kind introduced around then?😉 I’m kidding, mostly. Besides the possible reasons that you mentioned, there was also an increase in police numbers to combat rising crime, as well as a healthy economy that enabled young men to find jobs instead of turning to crime. Without any numbers, it’s impossible to say if the ban had much to do with it. (I notice that the decline coincided with the Bill Clinton presidency. I hadn’t realized that a reduction in violent crime happened on his watch.) I take your point that it happened without more gun controls (assuming the assault weapons ban had no effect), but the decline stopped in about 2000 and the rate has held steady since then. The U.S. is still the runaway leader in gun deaths by a country mile with no indication it’s going to improve. Getting the rate down lower will take more than hoping for a lucky convergence of events that we don’t understand. > [@JXJohns](#): > > The results of the legislation before and that passed in 96 are completely unacceptable to the average NRA member. Entire classes of firearms are no longer available, licenses to own guns are at the discretion of local authorities based upon perceived need, etc. Seems like a small price to pay for preventing the slaughter of innocent people on a semi-regular basis. It’s easy to understand why you, an NRA member, don’t get it.:rolleyes: > [@JXJohns](#): > > Those are exactly the NRA’s worst fears about doomsday. Nope. It’s already been established that their worst fears are the end of individual freedom in this country, the tyranny of King George and blah blah blah. What you describe isn’t within a light year of that, not even blah blah blah. > [@JXJohns](#): > > Not being a gun owner, it’s easy to understand why you don’t get it. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have a bolt-action .22 that I got for my 13th birthday from my dad as a kind of rite of passage. I shot lots of gophers and rabbits with it along with my likewise-armed friends and hunted ducks and upland game birds with a borrowed shotgun. I have some good memories from those days, but after shooting a jackrabbit that ran away trailing a bloody hind leg, I packed the .22 away for good, except for one time 30 years ago when I was invited to a target range. If the government ever had cause to ban .22’s, it would be no loss to me. So, been there, done that. Why again do I not get it? > [@JXJohns](#): > > I was just wondering if you were really into this discussion or making things up. I gathered those links after my first post in this thread, thinking for sure I’d be asked for them. When I wasn’t, I took that as tacit acceptance of my post, so I was a bit suspicious when you asked for them after all that time. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/125 "2016-08-27T21:37:25Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Yes, the NRA lies and exaggerates to instill fear into the members and would be members to bring in more funds. They are not unique in this endeavor and I hope we are done with this discussion. Thanks for the cites. I’m not going to take the NRA’s word for it, so you’ll excuse me if I’m not finished with this discussion. I’m keeping open the possibility that they’re not being truthful, to put it politely. More bluntly, that seems to be their _modus operandi_. It didn’t take very long to collect those quotes I linked to. You can’t swing a dead cat around the interwebs without hitting one. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/126 "2016-08-29T05:32:56Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Yes, the NRA lies and exaggerates to instill fear into the members and would be members to bring in more funds. Also, why does the NRA have to lie and exaggerate so much, and create demons for gun owners to hate, in order to sell memberships? If they can’t sell them honestly, they must not be worth much to begin with. Or is there another reason? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/127 "2016-08-29T14:34:25Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Also, why does the NRA have to lie and exaggerate so much, and create demons for gun owners to hate, in order to sell memberships? If they can’t sell them honestly, they must not be worth much to begin with. Or is there another reason? They do a fantastic job of defending the right of the people to keep and bear arms. That’s the reason I contribute to them (particularly to NRA-ILA). ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/128 "2016-08-29T19:55:21Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I take your point that it happened without more gun controls (assuming the assault weapons ban had no effect), but the decline stopped in about 2000 and the rate has held steady since then. The U.S. is still the runaway leader in gun deaths by a country mile with no indication it’s going to improve. Getting the rate down lower will take more than hoping for a lucky convergence of events that we don’t understand. It has continued to decline since 2000 albeit at a slower pace. > [@](#): > > Seems like a small price to pay for preventing the slaughter of innocent people on a semi-regular basis. It’s easy to understand why you, an NRA member, don’t get it.:rolleyes: I showed you the numbers. Once more if someone wants to get tough on guns, AW’s are not the way to go. > [@](#): > > Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have a bolt-action .22 that I got for my 13th birthday from my dad as a kind of rite of passage. I shot lots of gophers and rabbits with it along with my likewise-armed friends and hunted ducks and upland game birds with a borrowed shotgun. I have some good memories from those days, but after shooting a jackrabbit that ran away trailing a bloody hind leg, I packed the .22 away for good, except for one time 30 years ago when I was invited to a target range. If the government ever had cause to ban .22’s, it would be no loss to me. No bubble burst at all nor a real surprise. Somebody has to own all 300 million+ firearms in this country. You couldn’t care less if you had the rifle or not. While you have a gun, you certainly are not included with those of us labeled as gun owners and blamed for everything that is wrong in this country. See the term [FUDD](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fudd) ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/129 "2016-08-29T20:07:36Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Also, why does the NRA have to lie and exaggerate so much, and create demons for gun owners to hate, in order to sell memberships? If they can’t sell them honestly, they must not be worth much to begin with. Or is there another reason? As HD said, there is no organization out there that does a better job of defending gun owner rights. Not even close. Just like pro choice groups tell us that every candidate with an R next to their name will overturn Roe v. Wade and the Hillary shills remind us that Trump eats babies for breakfast with a side of Mexican immigrants, the NRA participates in campaigns to frighten their base to keep people involved instead of complacent. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/130 "2016-08-31T23:39:42Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > No bubble burst at all nor a real surprise. Somebody has to own all 300 million+ firearms in this country. You couldn’t care less if you had the rifle or not…See the term [FUDD](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fudd) Ah, now I’m No True Gun Owner. That’s quite a difference from not being a gun owner at all as you presumed, but apparently enough to make me the enemy. Your numbers just dwindled considerably. “True” gun owners must make up an even smaller minority of the population than I thought. Getting back to presumptions, that “definition” has a couple of doozies. A 5-4 split ruling on Heller that could be overturned by just one other judge hardly makes it a “true premise of the Second Amendment” as if it’s ordained by God Hisself. The SA’s imprecise wording makes it open to various interpretations, none of which will be “true”. I would also point out that not all owners of handguns and semi-auto rifles are on your side. I can think of at least two handgun owners–you know of them as well–who want tighter controls on guns, and I’m quite confident that they don’t treat themselves with “unwarranted scorn or contempt”. I guess that doesn’t make them Fudds, but I’m sure True Gun Owners will come up with another demeaning name for them. But it does make them and other like-minded handgun owners No True Gun Owners as well, which reduces your numbers even more. If we stay at this long enough, you guys might disappear altogether down your own wabbit hole, ha-ha-ha-ha. > [@JXJohns](#): > > …those of us labeled as gun owners and blamed for everything that is wrong in this country. Boo-hoo-hoo and cry me a river. When True Gun Owners perpetuate the lies and gross misrepresentations about the opposition, in the name of Freedom yet, they can’t expect fawning admiration from their opponents. Or, for that matter, from their own kind when they’re thrown under the bus and intimidated with demeaning labels because they don’t pass the rigid purity test (thanks for enlightening me on Fudds; it really helped to reveal the True Gun Owners’ attitude). Your version of freedom looks more like one authoritarian wolf with a gun telling the other who gets to eat the lamb since, as Wayne LaPierre himself said, the guys with the guns make the rules. Your persecution complex is lost on me. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855/131 "2016-08-31T23:42:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They do a fantastic job of defending the right of the people to keep and bear arms. That’s the reason I contribute to them (particularly to NRA-ILA). > [@JXJohns](#): > > As HD said, there is no organization out there that does a better job of defending gun owner rights. Not even close. > > Just like pro choice groups tell us that every candidate with an R next to their name will overturn Roe v. Wade and the Hillary shills remind us that Trump eats babies for breakfast with a side of Mexican immigrants, the NRA participates in campaigns to frighten their base to keep people involved instead of complacent. In this thread, you’ve gone from questioning that the NRA lies, to acknowledging that they lie but only to sell memberships, and now you say they lie to defend gun rights. I’d say that’s progress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bush-or-obama-a-better-president-for-pro-gun-people/761855.md?page=6)