# Was Bush's bland Xian eulogy for Ford okay with you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534 "2007-01-03T14:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Don26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/61 "2007-01-05T02:24:46Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Over yonder [we were discussing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=401566&page=10&pp=50) Bush’s eulogy for Ford, which made nominal mentions of their common Xianity. [/QUOTE] Should we not find your blatant bigotry offensive? Aren’t you supposed to be _tolerant?_ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/62 "2007-01-05T02:39:11Z")
**Don26** , it is usually a good idea to read through an entire thread before posting. In this thread, I call your attention to [Post #43](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8116304&postcount=43) by **pseudotriton ruber ruber**. I’m not sure that you yet have the hang of this particular Forum. We’re here to discuss ideas, (sometimes savagely, although I would prefer civilly), not to simply post angry challenges of (or insults against) other posters. If you believe that a poster is demonstrating bigotry, you are free to challenge the expression of bigoted ideas, here, or if you must, to move to the **BBQ Pit** to call that poster names. Simply throwing out a claim of bigotry and insisting that you are offended is not really appropriate. Calm down and play nice. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/63 "2007-01-06T06:54:59Z")
**ruber ruber** , you almost had me convinced that since it was a _state_ funeral, the President would be assumed to be acting in his official capacity. Therefore, even though he was free to say what he chose, he would have been fairer not to mention religious subjects. (Since this wasn’t the only funeral.) And then you go and get all reasonable. Hmph! How do you feel about the Washington _National_ Cathedral? It’s at the highest point in the city and seems to be the default church for state religious services. I hadn’t given it much thought until your thread. If this is too off topic, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/64 "2007-01-06T10:12:10Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] How do you feel about the Washington _National_ Cathedral? It’s at the highest point in the city and seems to be the default church for state religious services. I hadn’t given it much thought until your thread. If this is too off topic, I apologize. [/QUOTE] It’s not the government’s national cathedral. It’s the national cathedral of the Episcopal Church. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/65 "2007-01-06T16:47:18Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] It’s not the government’s national cathedral. It’s the national cathedral of the Episcopal Church. [/QUOTE] But he is right in that it does seem to be the default location for those events where government and religion co-mingle (like state funerals), and the Cathedral itself incorporates secular American as well as Christian iconography in its art. But such things are unavoidable, I think, as long as people can freely practice their faith in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/66 "2007-01-06T17:18:27Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] But he is right in that it does seem to be the default location for those events where government and religion co-mingle (like state funerals), \ [/QUOTE] That’s true, but I think it’s largely because the denomination is appropriate for many presidents (Ford was an Episcopalian, after all). President Kennedy’s funeral was not held there. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/67 "2007-01-06T17:51:05Z")
I was going to take issue with prr, but then he went and got all reasonable and shit, but I couldn’t let this one pass by. [QUOTE=Marley23] There _are_ arguable parts in this speech, you know - like the correctness of pardoning Nixon [/QUOTE] Are you fucking high? Pardoning Nixon was Ford’s saving grace, and the one act that will make him be seen by historians as more of a statesman and not just a caretaker president for a couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/68 "2007-01-06T18:05:32Z")
At the eulogy that Jimmy Carter gave for Ford, he quoted the opening line of his own inaugural address: > [@](#): > > For myself and for our Nation, I want to thank my predecessor for all he has done to heal our land. (He then noted, ruefully, that that line received more applause than the rest of his speech.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/69 "2007-01-06T20:06:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] That’s true, but I think it’s largely because the denomination is appropriate for many presidents (Ford was an Episcopalian, after all). President Kennedy’s funeral was not held there. [/QUOTE] Brush with greatness aside: Prior to converting, I grew up Episcopalian. My family attended St. John’s Episcopal Church, aka “The Church of the Presidents,” in Washington, DC during Ford’s presidency and, yes, Ford did attend services there. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/70 "2007-01-06T21:08:30Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] To me, it’s a simple issue of the separation of Church and State, which I think this entire culture (and this smaller culture on the SD) willfully misunderstands. If you pander to a large enough and bland enough majority, you’ll get a pass on the most blatant violation of the clear line between Church and State. You see it in “In God We Trust” and that no-brainer 10 Commandments crap in Alabama which should have taken about 15 seconds to remove from the public courthouse, so I’m not protesting its existence. I’m saying that it’s all around us, but I think few people care or notice or object to talk of Xianity in a Xian president’s funeral service. [/quote] This has absolutely nothing to do with separation of Church and State. That clause does not say that Government and its leaders have to pretend religion does not exist, nor does it prohibit them from making religious statements. Therefor it is not inappropriate whatsoever, he’s well within his constitutional bounds. > [@](#): > > My problem is this: he wasn’t elected President of the Xians. He was elected President of all of us. Like all of us, he’s free to believe whatever he likes. But he’s not free to proclaim his religious views at any public ceremony while acting as POTUS. Put a sock in it, George. Yes, actually he is. He’s free to say what he wants, just because he’s speaking “as the President” doesn’t mean he has to limit himself. What he isn’t free to do is _enact_ whatever he wants, the Constitution governs the actions of the President, not his words. Am I alone in finding even such bland homilies as Bush vomited forth dutifully objectionable? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/71 "2007-01-06T21:11:17Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I picked it because of its blandness (see thread title). I’m saying that, even if you sneak in a little tiny mention of religion, it’s subtle but still wrong. It denigrates the views of those members of a grateful nation who revere Ford but feel strongly that he is NOT being blessed by an almighty God and are offended that the deity is being invoked in a public ceremony. And by “those members” I mean all three of them. [/QUOTE] A state funeral isn’t for the public, sorry, your views or wishes are rightfully not going to be given any credence whatsoever here. A state funeral (or a military funeral, as another example) is something given to someone by the state in reward for their contributions to the United States; in accepting what is basically a gift from the state the family is not required to have an atheist funeral nor should they be. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/72 "2007-01-06T21:17:45Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Separation of Church and State. I know, I know, that we’ve allowed a certain nominal and bland deism into every boring political diatribe ever delivered, but if the President is technically allowed to say “God bless America” as his signoff line, why can’t he say “May Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Lord our God, who died for our sins, bless each and every American, good night”? There’s a reason he can’t say the latter, and it’s the same reason I feel he should prohibited from saying the former. [/QUOTE] You should read this: > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; That has been extrapolated by the courts to further mean Government in general can’t act in a way that is establishing, or in a way the prohibits the free exercise of religion (or choice to not exercise.) It has never even remotely been suggested this part of the constitution means anything close to, “elected officials aren’t supposed to make religious remarks in an official capacity.” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/73 "2007-01-06T22:01:54Z")
Out of curiosity, if we have a national cathedral, do we also have a national mosque and a national synagogue? Maybe what this country needs is a national circle of standing stones. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/74 "2007-01-06T22:10:24Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I guess my objection boils down to free advertising for a product I don’t use. [/QUOTE] Anytime a “product” reaches a saturation point in which it becomes inextricably tied to the culture in a society it’s going to get a ton of free advertising. Look at Coca-Cola for example. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/75 "2007-01-06T22:29:58Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] Out of curiosity, if we have a national cathedral, do we also have a national mosque and a national synagogue? Maybe what this country needs is a national circle of standing stones. [/QUOTE] For the record, the Episcopal Church built that structure as (a) **its** national worship structure – it’s the only cathedral in the world, AFAIK, shared by two top-gun bishops (as opposed to suffragan, coadjutor, assistant, etc. bishops): the Presiding Bishop for the national church, and the Bishop of Washington DC; And (b) a place it could offer for worship services for the nation as a whole, or that part of it that worships God. It’s intentionally set up to host ecumenical and other-denomination events from time to time. I believe there **is** a national mosque in Washington, owned and operated by some Islamic group in the capital; I recall seeing it at a distance when driving through Washington some years back. You could discuss with the Jewish folks here about a national synagogue, and with whatever pagan groups claim affinity with Stonehenge about the other idea (personally, I’d like to see it; America needs a suite of trilithions!!). There’s a big Baha’i temple there somewhere too, though I’ve never personally encountered it. Or perhaps you object to people using “national” as a descriptor when they aren’t beholden to the Federal government? Like the National Rifle Association, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the National Environmental Coalition? Obviously, to be fair, the country should support a National Antigun Association, a National Aryan Rights group, and a National Polluters Association – even though none of the above, like the Episcopal Church, have any connection to the government? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/76 "2007-01-06T22:30:17Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] Out of curiosity, if we have a national cathedral, do we also have a national mosque and a national synagogue? [/QUOTE] As pointed out by **Monty** , “we” do not have a national cathedral…the Episcopal Church does. The Catholic Church also has one…it’s called the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, and it is also in Wash DC. Neither of these cathedrals are in any way associated with the government in any offical capacity. Since the National Cathedral was built, I believe only 3 presidents have had their funerals there (Ike, Reagan, and Ford), and I presume this was because of their personal desire/denominational affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/77 "2007-01-06T22:36:51Z")
Yes, I know that the National Cathedral is Episcopal. Until twelve days ago, I had been a member of the Episcopal Church for over forty years. Now I have returned to the denomination of my youth for non-theological reasons. Was a religious service held in the National Cathedral shortly after 9-11? Was it a National Day of Mourning? I can’t remember. I do remember a woman with the most magnificent voice. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/78 "2007-01-06T22:54:03Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Or perhaps you object to people using “national” as a descriptor …? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure where you got the idea that I objected to it at all. I had never heard of a National Cathedral before, and hoped that someone would clarify so that it would illuminate the difference between a state function taking place in a government building and a personal-but-publicized function taking place on private property. And I want to be the head honcho at the National Sun Worshipper Aztec Pyramid, when we get one. You get babes with that, right? There’s gotta be babes or I don’t sign. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/79 "2007-01-06T23:15:00Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] You get babes with that, right? There’s gotta be babes or I don’t sign. [/QUOTE] Sorry. For THAT position, you have to demonstrate a capability to remove still-pulsing hearts from the chests of several hundred offerings in any given afternoon using an obsidian knife. (How many babes **that** will get you, I have no idea.) ---
**Author:** ![Don26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534/80 "2007-01-06T23:50:23Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] **Don26** , it is usually a good idea to read through an entire thread before posting. In this thread, I call your attention to [Post #43](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8116304&postcount=43) by **pseudotriton ruber ruber**. I’m not sure that you yet have the hang of this particular Forum. We’re here to discuss ideas, (sometimes savagely, although I would prefer civilly), not to simply post angry challenges of (or insults against) other posters. If you believe that a poster is demonstrating bigotry, you are free to challenge the expression of bigoted ideas, here, or if you must, to move to the **BBQ Pit** to call that poster names. Simply throwing out a claim of bigotry and insisting that you are offended is not really appropriate. Calm down and play nice. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] I had read the entire thread, though from the TITLE of the thread there was an obvious bigotry, i,e; > [@](#): > > Was Bush’s bland Xian eulogy for Ford okay with you? Are Jews called “Heebs” here? One would hope not. The name of the religion, is Christian, not the, frankly offensive, Xian as used throughout this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-bushs-bland-xian-eulogy-for-ford-okay-with-you/386534.md?page=5)