# Was Carl Karcher actually a racist/homophobe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 18, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072 "2008-01-18T19:52:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/1 "2008-01-18T19:52:27Z")
With the passing of Carl Karcher (owner of Carl’s Jr./Hardees), I’m reminded that I’d always “heard” he was a huge racist and/or homophobe, but I don’t recall ever seeing any evidence of this. A very quick Google search and a perusal of Snopes told me nothing other than that the rumor is out there. So what evidence, if any, IS there that he was any of those things? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/2 "2008-01-18T19:57:05Z")
Is [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aZw1oI3lTNDg&refer=muse) good enough for you? > [@bloomberg.com](#): > > A lifelong conservative Republican, Karcher was a financial backer of the so-called Brigg’s Initiative, a 1978 ballot proposal that would have required California state schools to fire any gay or lesbian teachers. The measure was defeated. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/3 "2008-01-18T21:17:17Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Is [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aZw1oI3lTNDg&refer=muse) good enough for you? [/QUOTE] Which, of course, does not make him a homophobe or racist, but merely someone who didn’t think teachers should be homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/4 "2008-01-18T21:27:59Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Which, of course, does not make him a homophobe or racist, but merely someone who didn’t think teachers should be homosexual. [/QUOTE] Yes, I don’t believe blacks should be teachers. That doesn’t make me a racist. 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/5 "2008-01-18T21:50:47Z")
Can’t have the gay rubbing off on the kiddies now can we? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/6 "2008-01-19T00:38:43Z")
[QUOTE=stpauler] Yes, I don’t believe blacks should be teachers. That doesn’t make me a racist. 😕😕 [/QUOTE] If Carl Karcher had promoted an initiative that attempted to fire black teachers, he could be legitimately accused of being racist. However, where your analogy fails is that homophobia is not the same as racism. Racism is the application of different standards to people of different races. Homophobia is a virulent and irrational hatred of people who are homosexual. Thus, not everyone who advocates treating those who are homosexual differently is a homophobe. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/7 "2008-01-19T04:02:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Which, of course, does not make him a homophobe or racist, but merely someone who didn’t think teachers should be homosexual. It doesn’t make him a racist. But, yes, it does make him a homophobe. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/8 "2008-01-19T04:32:54Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] It doesn’t make him a racist. But, yes, it does make him a homophobe. [/QUOTE] I am sorry, but mere discrimination against homosexuals is not homophobia. Homophobia is, at a minimum, a hatred of homosexuals. Conflating the concepts causes a significant difficulty to dealing with the issue of discrimination against homosexuals, because it attempts to paint anyone who has a feeling that homosexuality is morally wrong as a person who is a hater. Thus, instead of dealing with the feeling that there is something “wrong” with that sexual preference, and learning to overcome that feeling, the issue is shunted aside, for fear of being tarred with the same brush. By the same token, not everyone who discriminated (or discriminates still) against Americans of African descent should be equated with people who burn crosses and engage in anti-“black” violence. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/9 "2008-01-19T04:51:57Z")
For the purposes of my original question, I completely agree with **DSYoungEsq**. My understanding was that Karcher was truly a homophobe and not “only” someone who discriminated against homosexuals. Although I’m curious about evidence of either. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/10 "2008-01-19T04:53:37Z")
People who discriminate against people because of their race are racist. It’s obviously worse to kill somebody because they’re black then to deny them a job because they’re black but both are forms of racism. People who discriminate against people because of they’re gay are homophobic. It’s obviously worse to kill somebody because they’re gay then to deny them a job because they’re gay but both are forms of homophobia. You can have all the moral values you want. But when your moral values lead you to discriminate against black people (or other races) then you are a racist. And when you moral values lead you to discriminate against gay people, then you’re a homophobe. Anyone who finds comparisons about their moral values to be unpleasant should probably take a good look at those values. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/11 "2008-01-19T04:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] I am sorry, but mere discrimination against homosexuals is not homophobia. Homophobia is, at a minimum, a hatred of homosexuals. Conflating the concepts causes a significant difficulty to dealing with the issue of discrimination against homosexuals, because it attempts to paint anyone who has a feeling that homosexuality is morally wrong as a person who is a hater. Thus, instead of dealing with the feeling that there is something “wrong” with that sexual preference, and learning to overcome that feeling, the issue is shunted aside, for fear of being tarred with the same brush. By the same token, not everyone who discriminated (or discriminates still) against Americans of African descent should be equated with people who burn crosses and engage in anti-“black” violence. [/QUOTE] Bull. Anyone who is opposed to gay people being teachers is homophobic. There’s no other possible explanation. If you want to redefine homophobia by a narrow definition than everyone else, that’s your problem. But we all know what the term homophobia generally means (including various narrower meanings), and it’s not possible to be a supporter of the Briggs Initiative without being homophobic. I’m not one to throw around the word “homophobic” casually, but in this case it’s appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/12 "2008-01-19T04:54:23Z")
From [Wiki’s article on homophobia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia): > [@](#): > > Homophobia (from Greek: ὁμο homo(sexual), “same, equal” + φοβία (phobia), “fear”) is a non-clinical term used to describe the fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. It can also mean hatred, hostility, disapproval of, or prejudice towards homosexuals, or homosexual behavior or cultures. Homophobic is the adjective form of this term used to describe the qualities of these characteristics while homophobe is the noun form given as a title to individuals with “homophobic” characteristics. > … > The term homophobia is often used collectively with other terms denoting bigotry and discrimination. In a 1998 address, Coretta Scott King asserted that, “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.” Likewise, George Yancey, writing in Christian Ethics Today associates “sexism, racism, class distinctions, or homophobia” with one another and views them all as “varieties of discrimination,” although he argues that they are not identical. [citations omitted] The article goes on to contain criticism of the term, but the usage in this thread is consistent with the basic summary of the term in the article. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/13 "2008-01-19T19:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] I am sorry, but mere discrimination against homosexuals is not homophobia. Homophobia is, at a minimum, a hatred of homosexuals. [/QUOTE] Cite, please. Merriam-Webster’s defines homophobia as [“irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.”](http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/homophobia) ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/14 "2008-01-19T19:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Which, of course, does not make him a homophobe or racist, but merely someone who didn’t think teachers should be homosexual. [/QUOTE] OK, I’ll bite. What rationale could someone have for calling for all homosexual teachers to be fired that wouldn’t constitute an irrational hatred of them? I’m drawing a blank. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/15 "2008-01-19T20:43:55Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] OK, I’ll bite. What rationale could someone have for calling for all homosexual teachers to be fired that wouldn’t constitute an irrational hatred of them? I’m drawing a blank. [/QUOTE] They’re jealous of the gays better sense of fashion? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/16 "2008-01-19T21:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. What rationale could someone have for calling for all homosexual teachers to be fired that wouldn’t constitute an irrational hatred of them? I’m drawing a blank. I’m guessing that DSYoungEsq is trying to make the distinction that homophobia is strictly the fear of homosexuals, which is the narrow literal meaning of the term. People might hate homosexuals without fearing them or they may have other emotional responses towards homsexuals that cause them to discriminate against them. Which is why the common meaning of the term homophobia is any general discrimination against homosexuals regardless of its specific motivation. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/17 "2008-01-19T23:30:27Z")
Well then, let’s eliminate all language, since every word (with the exception of some proper nouns) is a generalization. Of course “homophobia” contains more than one meaning, just like almost every other word. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/18 "2008-01-20T03:14:14Z")
I agree. The issue of how many different ways you can define homophobe isn’t the one under discussion here. We were talking about whether or not Carl Karcher fit the common definition of a homophobe. And the answer is yes. However, nobody’s brought any evidence about his racial views yet. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/19 "2008-01-20T03:37:11Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Is [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aZw1oI3lTNDg&refer=muse) good enough for you? [/QUOTE] The quote irks me. It seems to me they’re trying to tie in the fact that he’s a conservative Republican with his support of a homophobic measure. One does not always lead to the other. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072/20 "2008-01-20T03:47:40Z")
As it is commonly used, “homophopia” is a catch-all term for prejudice and bigotry towards homosexuals. Advocating that a person be fired for no other reason than being homosexual is homophobic and that’s all there is to it. Saying that “homophobia requires hatred” is a fake and overly-simplistic definition. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-carl-karcher-actually-a-racist-homophobe/434072.md?page=2)