# Was Cheney using acceptable hunting safety practices or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739 "2006-02-16T02:31:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/1 "2006-02-16T02:31:14Z")
My dad was a crack shot, and a great bird hunter, but I’ve never followed up on this field sport, and so I know little to nothing about the specifics of proper hunting safety techniques. Re the Slate article below does the fact that his friend got “peppered” by Cheney yield a defacto conclusion that Cheney was being sloppy, or or there ways that could happen in real world hunting practice with Cheney following all applicable safety precautions? [Not only was Cheney’s accident a very serious business, but, by the standards of the sport, Cheney was at fault for not looking where he was firing and for being greedy](http://www.slate.com/id/2136179/nav/tap1/) [The mechanics of the accident](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_17;_ylt=Aha54VXD7a64WLoGnztb4IVqP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) > [@](#): > > A report that the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department issued Monday said Whittington was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney. > > “Another covey was flushed and Cheney swung on a bird and fired, striking Whittington in the face, neck and chest at approximately 30 yards,” the report said. > > Cheney said he fortunately always has a medical team with him, and members of that team responded to Whittington immediately after the accident. > > “I ran over to him,” Cheney said. “He was laying there on his back, obviously, bleeding. You could see where the shot struck him.” > > He said he has no idea if he hit a bird because he was completely focused on Whittington. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/2 "2006-02-16T02:38:49Z")
We figured out this afternoon that there are approx. 225-240 #7 1/2 pellets in a 3.4 oz. 28 gauge load. Whittington was hit with approx. 200 of them. I’d say he missed the bird. To the OP: No. If he had, somebody wouldn’t have gotten shot. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/3 "2006-02-16T02:42:58Z")
Almost by definition, he wasn’t following the rules of hunter and gun safety because he shot someone. Gun safety rules will aways prevent someone from be shot unintentionally if they are followed. If an accident does happen, 100% of the blame and responsibility lies with the shooter. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/4 "2006-02-16T03:25:57Z")
I believe the most infuriating thing is the double standard and privelege that is being invoked and used to advantage. Yet again, a serious mistake in judgement by this administration that is being sterilized. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/5 "2006-02-16T03:58:04Z")
I saw a story that said that the shootee failed to warn others that he was stepping out of the shooting line. That would seem to mitigate Cheney’s culpability, if it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/6 "2006-02-16T04:07:14Z")
Mitigate perhaps, but I believe the final responsibility rests with the shooter rather than the shootee. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/7 "2006-02-16T05:08:09Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I saw a story that said that the shootee failed to warn others that he was stepping out of the shooting line. That would seem to mitigate Cheney’s culpability, if it’s true. This has no bearing on the question of whether Cheney was using proper safety precautions or not, though. Safety precautions are intended to prevent accidents involving your weapon even if other people around you are not being careful. In fact, many safety precautions assume that other people can’t be trusted to be careful enough. My dad is a well-trained shooter who has taught firearms safety. He hates admitting that the “liberal media” might be right about anything, but he says that if Cheney had taken all the appropriate steps, this accident would not have happened. ---
**Author:** ![ombre3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@ombre3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre3)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/8 "2006-02-16T05:59:23Z")
I don’t know much about hunting or its safety rules. But—I would think that it at least SHOULD be against the rules to turn around and shoot at something without taking a couple seconds to see what you are SHOOTING AT. If Cheney had done that little bit of common sense thing—a “WELL, DUH!!!” kind of thing --------no on would have been injured. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/9 "2006-02-16T07:59:08Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I believe the most infuriating thing is the double standard and privelege that is being invoked and used to advantage. Yet again, a serious mistake in judgement by this administration that is being sterilized. **devilsknew** , your post does not address the OP. Politically charged statements are not tolerated in GQ. You have been warned. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/10 "2006-02-16T14:04:50Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Almost by definition, he wasn’t following the rules of hunter and gun safety because he shot someone. Gun safety rules will aways prevent someone from be shot unintentionally if they are followed. If an accident does happen, 100% of the blame and responsibility lies with the shooter. I think that’s being extreme. I’ve been an RSO and have had to deal with too many idiots who wilfully ignore large warning signs and trespass on operating firing ranges. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/11 "2006-02-16T14:51:59Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Almost by definition, he wasn’t following the rules of hunter and gun safety because he shot someone. Gun safety rules will aways prevent someone from be shot unintentionally if they are followed. If an accident does happen, 100% of the blame and responsibility lies with the shooter. Not true. There’s certain safety measures you have to take when you’re hunting. You should never shoot in the direction of another person, you should never shoot at “movement” but only at a clear target. But there are definitely cases where you can shoot someone and you can be completely faultless. I often hunt in the mountains and hills of the western counties of Virginia. Say I’m on one side of a hollow, I see a deer in the middle of the hollow and there’s another hunter on the other side. Do I take a shot at the deer? No way, even if it’s very unlikely I hit that guy, you don’t shoot even in the general direction of another person. However, change the situation so that everything is the same except the other hunter isn’t wearing blaze oragen, he’s wearing complete camo and is laying immobile. I can’t see him, I have no idea he’s there. I take a shot at the deer and miss, the bullet hits the other hunter. He’d be at fault there, because legally you’re required to wear X amount of blaze orange when you hunt in Virginia. But trust me lots of hunters don’t follow that rule. That’s why I’d never shoot at “movement” it could be _anything_. But if I can’t even _sense_ or see that there’s someone out there because they have themselves covered completely and are laying immobile, and I hit that person incidental to actually shooting at an animal (it could even hit the animal and go through it depending on caliber) I’m certainly not the one who is being the unsafe hunter. What if, however, I shot at the deer and missed, hitting a hunter who _was_ wearing blaze orange? Would that be my fault? Definitely. But it’s still possible if you’re not paying good attention that you wouldn’t notice the person in blaze orange, it happens if you’re too focused on the deer in your sights. That situation is more akin to what Cheney did. Cheney wasn’t watching his entire field of vision very well, he wasn’t paying attention and made a mistake. For what it’s worth Cheney has dismissed all the explanations about Whittington possibly being at fault and accepted full responsibility himself. So it’s basically a moot point now. ---
**Author:** ![PorkFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PorkFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorkFat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/12 "2006-02-16T16:27:55Z")
> [@astro](#): > > My dad was a crack shot, and a great bird hunter, but I’ve never followed up on this field sport, and so I know little to nothing about the specifics of proper hunting safety techniques. > > Re the Slate article below does the fact that his friend got “peppered” by Cheney yield a defacto conclusion that Cheney was being sloppy, or or there ways that could happen in real world hunting practice with Cheney following all applicable safety precautions? > [Not only was Cheney’s accident a very serious business, but, by the standards of the sport, Cheney was at fault for not looking where he was firing and for being greedy](http://www.slate.com/id/2136179/nav/tap1/) > [The mechanics of the accident](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_17;_ylt=Aha54VXD7a64WLoGnztb4IVqP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) It was Cheney’s fault through and through. When you’re bird hunting in large groups, you don’t aim below head height. In fact, most clubs will fine you or kick you out for too many infractions. He’s a fool for not using common sense. Whether or not the other guy announced his presence, he was shot because somebody didn’t want to follow simple rules. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/13 "2006-02-16T20:17:56Z")
Google ads moment of zen: $200/Hour In Haliburton? $200/Hr To Take Online Surveys in The Comfort of Your Own Home! Aff SNIP President Dick Cheney 2008 is closer than you think! T-shirts, stickers, buttons, etc. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/14 "2006-02-17T01:38:58Z")
Without having been there, I would agree he wasn’t. I just can’t come up with a way that you could follow all the safety rules and hit someone who you knew was there (somewhere) and was wearing bright colors. When you pick up a weapon, you take responsibility for what that weapon does until you set that weapon back down. I do have to wonder what the victim was doing downrange, though. I’ve shared the woods with hunters and I always paid attention to where they were and where they were going. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/15 "2006-02-17T11:52:45Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > We figured out this afternoon that there are approx. 225-240 #7 1/2 pellets in a 3.4 oz. 28 gauge load. Whittington was hit with approx. 200 of them. > > I’d say he missed the bird. I haven’t been out shooting that much recently but I used to go ptarmigan hunting a few times each winter so I have a slight idea of how these things (shotguns) work. We hike and climb mountains to find birds to shoot here, though, so I don’t quite know the intricacies of this sport of Mr. Cheney’s. Does it seem strange that 200 pellets would hit Mr. Whittington in such a confined area from 30 yards out? These pellets spread pretty fast and wide, after all. Also, didn’t some of them penetrate his vest, jacket, whatever he was wearing underneath it and his skin? Seems pretty intense for a 30-yard peppering with a 28-gauge, don’t it? How long is what you call the… “Kill Zone” (?) for a shotgun? ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/16 "2006-02-18T00:33:39Z")
> [@ombre3](#): > > But—I would think that it at least SHOULD be against the rules to turn around and shoot at something without taking a couple seconds to see what you are SHOOTING AT. Dove fly very fast. If you jump them you probably need to shoulder your gun swing, and fire within a second or so. Seems short, but it is enough time to distinguish between a dove and a meadowlark. (they both live and feed in similar cover) Other subtopics in this thread: Reported injury seems extreme for 30yds with #8 shot (appropriate for dove) from a 28 ga. Cheney clearly didn’t have knowlege of the location of all of his hunting partners. It was his job to know where everyone else is, not thier job to tell him. Oh yeah, 28ga? WTF? girls gun. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/17 "2006-02-18T01:38:40Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Dove fly very fast. If you jump them you probably need to shoulder your gun swing, and fire within a second or so. Seems short, but it is enough time to distinguish between a dove and a meadowlark. (they both live and feed in similar cover) Having hunted in brush, I’d guess that Whittington was at least partially concealed when he was hit. Snapshotting a moving target tends to make you focus in and ignore anything else, and a pattern that is broken up in concealment can be hard to identify. > [@Kevbo](#): > > Other subtopics in this thread: Reported injury seems extreme for 30yds with #8 shot (appropriate for dove) from a 28 ga. With a full choke, it’s plausible that the shot pattern could stay within a sillouette; I agree, however, that it does seem unlkely that either that amount of shot would hit, and that it would penetrate as deeply as reported. If I had to hazard a WAG it sounds like Cheney was 10-15 yards, not 30. > [@Kevbo](#): > > Cheney clearly didn’t have knowlege of the location of all of his hunting partners. It was his job to know where everyone else is, not thier job to tell him. Well, yes and no. When hunting in a group–especially when you’re retrieving game–it’s important to let your party know where you’re going and how you’ll be coming back. It doesn’t sound as if Whittington did this. On the other hand, it’s no contest to say that Cheney broke Rules #2, #3, and #4 of safe gun handling. (I’m assuming he was otherwise treating his shotgun as a loaded weapon.) Neither he or anyone else can make the case that he’s guiltless or that this was an unavoidable accident, but from the details reported it sounds as if Whittington contributed to the situation. Accidents will happen and people will lapse in their vigilence of safe handling practices. The damning thing in this case was the complete lack of followup with law enforcement and the apparent attempt to keep information from the press, an act for which Cheney has reportedly been getting criticism from within the White House as well as from outside. > [@Kevbo](#): > > Oh yeah, 28ga? WTF? girls gun. ::shrug:: Nice, lightweight gun for small fowl. Not too loud, not too awkward. To each his own. Just keep clear of Dick “Mad Panda” Cheney’s line of fire. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/18 "2006-02-18T01:56:05Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Dove fly very fast. If you jump them you probably need to shoulder your gun swing, and fire within a second or so. Seems short, but it is enough time to distinguish between a dove and a meadowlark. (they both live and feed in similar cover) If a hunter is taking all appropriate safety precautions, the trigger finger is outside the trigger guard until s/he is ready to take a shot. If Cheney had done this, he would not have accidentally shot his friend. It seems pretty clear that Cheney had his finger on the trigger, got excited, and fired impulsively. According to my dad and his friends at the gun club, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/19 "2006-02-18T03:11:27Z")
> [@Q.N. Jones](#): > > If a hunter is taking all appropriate safety precautions, the trigger finger is outside the trigger guard until s/he is ready to take a shot. If Cheney had done this, he would not have accidentally shot his friend. Apparently he was ready to take a shot, since that’s what he did. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739/20 "2006-02-18T15:34:47Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > With a full choke, it’s plausible that the shot pattern could stay within a sillouette; I agree, however, that it does seem unlkely that either that amount of shot would hit, and that it would penetrate as deeply as reported. If I had to hazard a WAG it sounds like Cheney was 10-15 yards, not 30. Plausible, maybe, but extremely unlikely… I’m most concerned that such a high number of pellets would hit such a small area after such a distance; 30 yards really is a lot with a 28-gauge–10-15 yards is pretty much the distance I was thinking of, too. > [@](#): > > In relation to the type of firearm required, it is important to decide what the firearm is intended for, i.e. the procurement of food or for personal protection. There are three basic types of firearms to be consider and each has a particular killing zone. The killing zones are as follows: > > 1. Personal killing zone - distance to target 0 to 10 meters (0 to 33 feet) > 2. Middle killing zone - distance to target 10 to 100 meters (33 to 328 feet) > 3. Long range killing zone - distance to target 100 to 1000 meters (328 to 3280 feet) From [http://www.millennium-ark.net/News\_Files/Firearms/Firearms\_Primer.html](http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_Files/Firearms/Firearms_Primer.html) 33 feet, huh? Lucky–this could have been made to look worse had Mr. Cheney shot his 78-year-old friend in the face within the personal killing zone, I guess. [Jon Stewart as DC]The world is my personal killing zone, Wah![/JSADC] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-cheney-using-acceptable-hunting-safety-practices-or-not/344739.md?page=2)