# Was "Doubting Thomas" Denied Salvation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 1, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571 "2009-07-01T12:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/41 "2009-07-07T12:34:03Z")
> [@Belrix](#): > > Ah - predestiny. I knew you were gonna bring this up. > > Try this, “God knows all things knowable” according to one theologian’s thinking. > > Me? I take a quantum mechanical approach - God can see down the paths of choice and see where all paths lead. When you make a choice, the other paths become unavailable (collapsing the wave function) but you still had free will to make the choice and he knew the result of that choice before it happened. > > Beside, if you have no spirit, if you’re just a biomechanical machine, then you are no more than a software-driven, wetware computer. You’re a complicated state machine and every “choice” you make could be predicted, too, with an accurate enough silicon-based emulation of your software. > > To me, to deny the spirit’s existence, denies free will. Is it free will to say,“My way or the highway? If a parent say’s to a child,” you can go to the movies if you choose to, but I do not want you to go, so if you go I am going to make you suffer the rest of your life", how can that be free will? What is spirit? It is said about a horse," it has spirit". ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/42 "2009-07-07T12:38:50Z")
> [@Belrix](#): > > Ah - predestiny. I knew you were gonna bring this up. > > Try this, “God knows all things knowable” according to one theologian’s thinking. > > Me? I take a quantum mechanical approach - God can see down the paths of choice and see where all paths lead. When you make a choice, the other paths become unavailable (collapsing the wave function) but you still had free will to make the choice and he knew the result of that choice before it happened. > > Beside, if you have no spirit, if you’re just a biomechanical machine, then you are no more than a software-driven, wetware computer. You’re a complicated state machine and every “choice” you make could be predicted, too, with an accurate enough silicon-based emulation of your software. > > To me, to deny the spirit’s existence, denies free will. As an added thought to my other response…All things knowable would include knowing all things past, present, and future, so if God is all knowing, then He would still know the outcome of any actions of any of His beings. If what a person or being will do is not knowable by God, then God is no better than a human father. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/43 "2009-07-07T18:43:47Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Is it free will to say,“My way or the highway? If a parent say’s to a child,” you can go to the movies if you choose to, but I do not want you to go, so if you go I am going to make you suffer the rest of your life", how can that be free will? Suffering for the rest of your life is not a natural consequence of going to the movies. It might, however, be a consequence of getting hooked on heroin, for example, though, so a parent might say to a child, “You can take heroin if you want to, but I do not want you to, because you will suffer for the rest of your life.” What’s not freedom is if our choices have the same consequences no matter what we choose. But I think this has gotten far away from what the thread is about. If you really want to discuss such issues, you might want to start a new thread, perhaps in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Belrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@Belrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belrix)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/44 "2009-07-07T18:51:55Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What is spirit? It is said about a horse," it has spirit". “Soul” then… and not the musical kind. You know what I meant and you’re just being intentionally obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/45 "2009-07-07T19:14:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Wait. So if faith is a gift of God, it follows as night from day that persnos who lack it – say Victor Stenger, or Richard Dawkins – have been denied it by God, and then condemned for what they lack because of God’s action, right? Faith does come from God, but it is also something that must be desired by the person, God will not force faith on a person, though He may use extreme pressure, they must desire it. As for those people you mentioned above, unless they commit the unpardonable sin they will be forgiven. IMHO the unpardonable sin can only be committed by very few, and with full knowledge of what they are doing, most people actually can not commit it, it is impossible for them. Even if a person dies and goes to Sheol, God has rescued people from even there, it’s just how much pressure will a person endure till they cry out to God, some, perhaps many will require death before they realize that what they want is life. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/46 "2009-07-08T02:55:10Z")
If I offer you a gift and you don’t take it, you still don’t have it, but I haven’t denied it to you. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/47 "2009-07-08T11:26:53Z")
> [@Belrix](#): > > “Soul” then… and not the musical kind. > > You know what I meant and you’re just being intentionally obtuse. How is soul different then life? Life leaves the body, where does it go? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/48 "2009-07-08T11:30:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Faith does come from God, but it is also something that must be desired by the person, God will not force faith on a person, though He may use extreme pressure, they must desire it. As for those people you mentioned above, unless they commit the unpardonable sin they will be forgiven. IMHO the unpardonable sin can only be committed by very few, and with full knowledge of what they are doing, most people actually can not commit it, it is impossible for them. Even if a person dies and goes to Sheol, God has rescued people from even there, it’s just how much pressure will a person endure till they cry out to God, some, perhaps many will require death before they realize that what they want is life. Can you explain this other then that some other person wrote or told you this is so? How can one state as fact that God said or inspired anything, unless it comes from some human source? Faith is believeing in what one was told to believe or the person wishes it were true, so it is easy to believe anything. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/49 "2009-07-08T17:30:13Z")
> [@thirdwarning](#): > > If I offer you a gift and you don’t take it, you still don’t have it, but I haven’t denied it to you. There was one time in my life where I wanted this alleged “gift”. I craved it, looked for it, wished for it, asked for it and prayed for it. No such gift was ever presented to me. When I realized there was no gift and that it was humans who created god in their image, I was able to let go of this primitive desire. As a result, I am much happier now that I have removed the albatross of religion and faith from my back. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571/50 "2009-07-08T18:07:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Faith does come from God, but it is also something that must be desired by the person, God will not force faith on a person, though He may use extreme pressure, they must desire it. As for those people you mentioned above, unless they commit the unpardonable sin they will be forgiven. IMHO the unpardonable sin can only be committed by very few, and with full knowledge of what they are doing, most people actually can not commit it, it is impossible for them. Even if a person dies and goes to Sheol, God has rescued people from even there, it’s just how much pressure will a person endure till they cry out to God, some, perhaps many will require death before they realize that what they want is life. As my great-grandmother said right before they hanged her for castle-rustling: bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-doubting-thomas-denied-salvation/501571.md?page=2)