# Was Eden a real place? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2007, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009 "2007-11-19T04:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/21 "2007-11-19T18:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 “Non-Adamic human”? [/QUOTE] There are various kludges to attempt to solve the Biblical literalists’ problem of “Who did Cain and Seth (Adam and Eve’s third son, per the Genesis account) marry?” IIRC, ‘non-Adamic humans’ are one of those kludges. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/22 "2007-11-19T18:58:41Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] There are various kludges to attempt to solve the Biblical literalists’ problem of “Who did Cain and Seth (Adam and Eve’s third son, per the Genesis account) marry?” IIRC, ‘non-Adamic humans’ are one of those kludges. [/QUOTE] Never understood why mating with a non-Adamic human was considered preferable to mating with one’s sister (Adam’s daughters are mentioned in Gen 5:4). Anyway, one aspect of an oral tradition, I’d guess, is that the stories can’t retain a huge amount of detail (as I mentioned earlier) or subtlety. The Garden of Eden is actually a pretty simplistic and basic tale, as is Noah’s flood. Personally, I thought Michael Shermer was being generously diplomatic when he called the Noah myth “sublime”. Talking about a before-time in the long-long-ago when everything was perfect (until _somebody_ screwed it up) must be pretty tempting to anyone in any culture who has to deal with unpleasant daily duties and hassles. Heck, Americans are fond of “Edenizing” the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/23 "2007-11-19T19:25:59Z")
While we tend to rattle off “the Garden of Eden” as though Eden were the name of a pardaisical garden, the actual Scripture (KJV being the convenient source) is “And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden.” (Genesis 2:8) I.e., Eden is \*\*a region in which \*\*God planted a garden. Gen 3:23 says God drove Adam forth from the garden of Eden. Similarly we might talk about “the Everglades of Florida” or “the Alps of Switzerland” without necessarily implying that all of Florida is everglades or all of Switzerland is Alps. My comment earlier related to having read, in the past, that the area in SW Iraq was in fact called Eden in historic times, and was, of course, “eastward” from where the Bible was written. One needs to be careful in not assuming that the four “rivers going forth” are being described as **flowing out** of Eden; IIRC, the Hebrew does not imply what the water did but rather that the rivers converge there. However, it’s interesting that the Tigris, Euphrates, and other smaller rivers rise in SE Turkey with sources fairly near each other. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden) has a wealth of information on various speculations concerning Eden and Garden thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/24 "2007-11-19T21:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Asimov floats a similar theory in his Guide to the Bible that the story of Cain and Abel was supposed to be about warfare between early Agrarian and Pastoral people, as innocent farmer Abel is favored by God and treacherous nomadic sheep herder Cain gets jealous and kills him. [/QUOTE] Except it’s the other way around…Abel is the innocent herder favored by YHWH, while Cain is the jealous treacherous farmer. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/25 "2007-11-19T21:41:11Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Except it’s the other way around…Abel is the innocent herder favored by YHWH, while Cain is the jealous treacherous farmer. [/QUOTE] OK, Sunday school was a _real_ long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/26 "2007-11-19T22:28:26Z")
I’m missing a few key points here, but please respond. Have you ever heard about the Bible interpretting the Bible (itself)? Many members of the Church: the Kingdom of Heaven; the Isreal of God including the New Jerusalem which lives in members of the Church (the Light of Life as described in John 1): believe that Jesus is the Word. The double edged sword that Jesus was brought to give to us (Jew and Greek) is that Word. The tree of Life is the Holy Ghost–the gift we recieve from Jesus in obedience to His Word (John 3 (not just 16) and Acts 1,2 are supportive). By fulfilling the prophecy, the promises and the law (we are free from the law of sin and of death, for by the law the Jews did not recieve the forgiveness of sins) Also, Jesus did not come to bring peace unto Old Isreal, but to divide them according to their works (of faith or not) (Parousia) So we are told to study Old Covenant daily (so as not to make the same mistakes) I’m digress ing? here TGTTP (to get to the point) The Holy Bible is the Tree of Life who is Jesus who is the manifestation of the New Covenant who enlightens us and gives us life more abundantly There is a lot more to it. Help anyone? [http://www.poetry.com](http://www.poetry.com) Derrick Shoemaker ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/27 "2007-11-19T22:32:32Z")
We must consume Jesus, the bread of life, the milk and meat of the Word The Kingdom of Heaven is within the Breath of Jesus ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/28 "2007-11-19T22:34:19Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] Have you ever heard about the Bible interpretting the Bible (itself)? [/quote] Certainly. The NT contains many passages (grossly mis)interpreting passages in the OT. [QUOTE=shoe1234] By fulfilling the prophecy, the promises and the law (we are free from the law of sin and of death, for by the law the Jews did not recieve the forgiveness of sins) [/quote] Then what is the point of Yom Kippur? (Leave it to the Jews to have an annual high holy day devoted entirely to guilt. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/29 "2007-11-19T22:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] We must consume Jesus, the bread of life, the milk and meat of the Word The Kingdom of Heaven is within the Breath of Jesus [/QUOTE] So was Eden a real place? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/30 "2007-11-19T22:37:40Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] I’m missing a few key points here, but please respond. [/QUOTE] Well, ISTM (it seems to me 😉 ) that you missed the whole point of the OP, because nothing you said in either of your posts relate to it. I’m asking if Eden was a real place. If you don’t think it was, a simple ‘no’ followed by why you think this is the case would suffice. Seriously, what has Eden to do with Jesus exactly? If you want to start a thread where you simply spout on about the bible you are free to do so…this forum takes Witnessing as well (though you probably won’t get a very good response). Please confine your rambling to the actual question I’m asking, ok? -XT ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/31 "2007-11-19T22:46:38Z")
I hate to put it this way, but it may help. As we (members of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Church) are of the seed of Abraham–circumcised in the heart. The Word gentile used in the Bible, in the Greek, was ‘goyem’=heathen Modern day non Christian Jews(or atleast those that think they are descendants of Abraham and do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ the Lord, the everlasting Father who came in the flesh)…these people use the same word…goyem to describe "non Jews), who can be graffed into the olive tree and reign with Jesus ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/32 "2007-11-19T22:49:14Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] I hate to put it this way, but it may help. As we (members of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Church) are of the seed of Abraham–circumcised in the heart. The Word gentile used in the Bible, in the Greek, was ‘goyem’=heathen Modern day non Christian Jews(or atleast those that think they are descendants of Abraham and do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ the Lord, the everlasting Father who came in the flesh)…these people use the same word…goyem to describe "non Jews), who can be graffed into the olive tree and reign with Jesus [/QUOTE] Work on your grammar and punctuation; otherwise your point is incomprehensible. (Are you saying unconverted Jews **can** or **cannot** reign with Jesus?) “Circumcised in the heart” I wouldn’t touch with a bishop’s crook. ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/33 "2007-11-19T22:55:06Z")
Yes…I believe that Eden was a physical place as a type of the New Covenant. The Word, Jesus, the Sword, the Holy Breath is the tree of life. He is the tree of Life of the New Covenant ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/34 "2007-11-19T22:55:54Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] I hate to put it this way, but it may help. As we (members of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Church) are of the seed of Abraham–circumcised in the heart. The Word gentile used in the Bible, in the Greek, was ‘goyem’=heathen Modern day non Christian Jews(or atleast those that think they are descendants of Abraham and do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ the Lord, the everlasting Father who came in the flesh)…these people use the same word…goyem to describe "non Jews), who can be graffed into the olive tree and reign with Jesus [/QUOTE] I hate to put it this way…but none of the above nearly incomprehensible screed has anything to do with if Eden is or is not a real place. You are attempting to hijack the thread with, essentially, a loaded rubber ducky. Go start your own thread if you want to talk about whatever it is you think you are talking about. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/35 "2007-11-19T22:57:26Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] Yes…I believe that Eden was a physical place as a type of the New Covenant. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. Thanks for joining the discussion. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/36 "2007-11-19T22:57:31Z")
[QUOTE=shoe1234] Yes…I believe that Eden was a physical place as a type of the New Covenant. [/QUOTE] “As a type of the New Covenant”?! **I** don’t see Christians walking around naked and scorning work! ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/37 "2007-11-19T22:58:11Z")
What I was trying to say that all of the unconverted are heathen, spiritually Romans 2 ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/38 "2007-11-19T23:01:04Z")
However, anyone can be graffed into the root and fatness of the Olive Tree ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/39 "2007-11-19T23:02:33Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] I don’t know where or when it all happened, but it makes sense to me that it happened, though not in the traditionally interpreted way. I won’t argue against God using evolution even to bring about physical Adamic humanity, nor will I argue there were no physical humans before Adam. But it makes sense that at one point at time, there weren’t humans who had a child-parent relationship with the Creator, then suddenly there were, and they spread to dominate & assimilate any & all other humans who may have existed. [/QUOTE] Interesting view, if I read you correctly. You are saying that there were other humans than Adam and Eve. God took a special liking to those two (or created them especially for the purpose) and had a special relationship with them. They broke his trust and were thrown out, mixing with all other humans. Do I have that right? In that case, are they kind of the first Jews, the first God’s Chosen People? ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009/40 "2007-11-19T23:08:56Z")
Adam and Eve were two of the children of promise, and their was reign was passed onto 77 generations unto the Bride of Christ, the Church, the new Jerusalem. Isrealites were called Isrealites because of the name that Jesus gave Jacob. I suppose that Jews are called so by the name of their home town. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-eden-a-real-place/427009.md?page=3)