# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Torgo\_ate\_my\_hamster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@Torgo\_ate\_my\_hamster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Torgo_ate_my_hamster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/181 "2009-12-23T03:05:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Shit, it looks like [Ivan the Terrible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kremlinpic4.jpg) was actually Native American!!! Who’d a thunk it?! I don’t know. He seems Klingon to me. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/182 "2009-12-23T03:21:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Chameleons? Hey! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/183 "2009-12-23T03:29:28Z")
Oh, and the name “Stuart” means “[household guardian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_%28name%29)”, NOT “black boy”, as [your friend claims](http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:OsbtIqnDWLAJ:www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/king-charles-stuart-ii-king-of-england-aka-the-black-boy/+egmond+codfried+stuart+means&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us). (Link safe – it’s a google cache) I don’t know WHERE people come up with this shit, but whatever it is, I want some! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/184 "2009-12-23T03:43:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, and the name “Stuart” means “[household guardian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_%28name%29)”, NOT “black boy”, as [your friend claims](http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:OsbtIqnDWLAJ:www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/king-charles-stuart-ii-king-of-england-aka-the-black-boy/+egmond+codfried+stuart+means&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us). Really? That’s basic etymology right there. I thought everyone knew what a steward is. Certainly all of our Lord of the Rings fans could set him straight on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/185 "2009-12-23T03:59:33Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Whites do not make black babies, unless there is some recent black ancestry in both parents. If that is true, which of Charles II’s parents ([Charles I](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:King_Charles_I_by_Antoon_van_Dyck.jpg)& [Henrietta Maria of France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henrietta_Maria_01.jpg)) look black to you?? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/186 "2009-12-23T04:13:31Z")
The site claims: > [@](#): > > There was once a Stuart line of Kings in England. The name of the founding ancestor was Stuart which means Black man. Yes, and that founding ancestor of the Stuart line is [Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Henry-stuart-darnley.jpg) Yes, there’s a black boy if I ever saw one. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/187 "2009-12-23T04:26:46Z")
> [@](#): > > The period discussed here is 1500-1789 > > Cleopatra is described as black. > Some pieces at the Louvre Paris show her relatives as with classical black features: noses, lips, hair. > > But lets not confuse the matter by mixing periods, please Classics Professor Mary Lefkowitz has written a couple of books debunking Afrocentrist theories. In the link below she addresses the idea that Cleopatra was black (also open the link to see the images of busts and coinage portraits which show she did not have black features). She also addresses much of the other nonsense Afrocentrists come up with. > [@](#): > > Until recently, no one ever asked whether Cleopatra might have had an African ancestor, because our surviving ancient sources identify her as a Macedonian Greek. Her ancestors, the Ptolemies, were descended from one of Alexander’s generals. After Alexander’s death in 323 B. C., these generals divided up among themselves the territory in the Mediterranean that Alexander had conquered. The name Cleopatra was one of the names traditionally given to women in the royal family; officially our Cleopatra (69-30 BC) was Cleopatra VII, the daughter of Ptolemy XII and his sister. Cleopatra VII herself followed the family practice of marrying within the family. She married her two brothers (Ptolemy XIII and XIV) in succession (after the first died in suspicious circumstances, she had the second murdered). Her first language was Greek; but she was also the first member of the Ptolemaic line who was able to speak Egyptian. She also wore Egyptian dress, and was shown in art in the dress of the goddess Isis. She chose to portray herself as an Egyptian not because she was Egyptian, but because she was ambitious to stay in power. In her surviving portraits on coins and in sculpture she appears to be impressive rather than beautiful, Mediterranean in appearance, with straight hair and a hooked nose. Of course these portraits on metal and stone give no indication of the color of her skin. > > The only possibility that she might not have been a full-blooded Macedonian Greek arises from the fact that we do not know the precise identity of one member of her family tree. We do not know who her grandmother was on her father’s side. Her grandmother was the mistress (not the wife) of her grandfather, Ptolemy IX. Because nothing is known about this person, the assumption has always been that she was a Macedonian Greek, like the other members of Ptolemy’s court. Like other Greeks, the Ptolemies were wary of foreigners. They kept themselves apart from the native population, with brothers usually marrying sisters, or uncles marrying nieces, or in one case a father marrying his daughter (Ptolemy IX and Cleopatra Berenice III). Because the Ptolemies seemed to prefer to marry among themselves, even incestuously, it has always been assumed that Cleopatra’s grandmother was closely connected with the family. If she had been a foreigner, one of the Roman writers of the time would have mentioned it in their invectives against Cleopatra as an enemy of the Roman state. These writers were supporters of Octavian (later known as Augustus) who defeated Cleopatra’s forces in the battle of Actium in 31 B.C. [http://www.wellesley.edu/CS/Mary/Not\_Out\_of\_Africa.html](http://www.wellesley.edu/CS/Mary/Not_Out_of_Africa.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/188 "2009-12-23T04:59:29Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > What would you consider proof? > DNA is out of the question. > My theory is built on many pillars. Like: > Personal descriptions Whose descriptions? You’ve mentioned this several times, but you have yet to provide a cite showing exactly who described the European monarchs as black. > [@](#): > > black images Which black images? The only image of a black man you have shown is Barack Obama, edited to look white. You are showing us images of white Europeans, and claiming they were really black men. > [@](#): > > black described yet shown as whites. why? Described by who? > [@](#): > > many, many Moores in western art, which we still have to discuss. Moores? Do you mean Moors? If so, how would Moors in Europe lend credence to a theory of black European aristocracy? > [@](#): > > archeological proof of The Grimaldi Man, there were blacks in Europe. Of course there were blacks in Europe. I haven’t heard of the Grimaldi Man, though. Who is he, and how does he support the idea that European nobility were black? > [@](#): > > Garamante: their descendents were called Black Dutch arriving in the 17th century in the US Cite? Garamantes were Saharan people who lived in Africa and never went to the Netherlands, according to every source I can find. If some Garamantes made it to Europe, where is the evidence they ended up as royalty? > [@](#): > > Most eurocentric studies were written by ideological racists You have yet to provide a single legitimate example proving your hypothesis. Even if Eurocentric historians are ideological racists, how does that support the idea that blacks dominated European royalty? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/189 "2009-12-23T05:15:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Shit, it looks like [Ivan the Terrible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kremlinpic4.jpg) was actually Native American!!! Who’d a thunk it?! Just like me! ---
**Author:** ![goldmund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a4c791/32.png) [@goldmund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goldmund)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/190 "2009-12-23T05:20:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If that is true, which of Charles II’s parents ([Charles I](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:King_Charles_I_by_Antoon_van_Dyck.jpg)& [Henrietta Maria of France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henrietta_Maria_01.jpg)) look black to you?? Nevermind that his [brother](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_II_of_England) was in charge of the [Royal African Company](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_African_Company), which had a monopoly on England’s African slave trade at the time… ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/191 "2009-12-23T05:25:17Z")
That doesn’t mean anything. There were plenty of blacks back in Africa involved in the slave trade too, remember. African blacks were buying and selling each other long before ol’ Whitey ever stepped in, and, for that matter, long _after_ Whitey abolished slavery in Whiteyland. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/192 "2009-12-23T05:40:48Z")
Where have these _black royals_ gone? They have their _pretender_ descendents and in some cases their ruling descendents, if with a side-step. The simple answer is that _blue blood_ is an English expression related partly to the dark purple blood of royalty afflicted with the congenital condition of _Porphyry_ that turns the blood purple (and takes its name from that), partly from the idea of their protected skin being so thin and _white_ that the blue veins showed through as they did not on thick-skinned peasantry. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/193 "2009-12-23T05:48:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The site claims: > > Yes, and that founding ancestor of the Stuart line is [Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Henry-stuart-darnley.jpg) Yes, there’s a black boy if I ever saw one. :rolleyes: No offense, but you’re waaaaay off: try [Robert II](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_of_Scotland), grandson of the famous Robert the Bruce. [House of Stuart/Stewart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stuart) (now our “dear” friend **Egmond** can analize the pictures of Stuart monarchs for signs of “blackness” all he wishes!) They only changed the _spelling_ to Stuart because of Darnley’s French connections, it seems. But he was a cousin of Mary’s, so he was already a member of the Stuart/Stewart dynasty. > [@teletype](#): > > Nevermind that his [brother](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_II_of_England) was in charge of the [Royal African Company](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_African_Company), which had a monopoly on England’s African slave trade at the time… ETA: Fixed link: [James II](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_II_of_England) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/194 "2009-12-23T05:55:55Z")
Well, it was never specified exactly which Stuart ancestor the Stuart line of _English_ monarchs was descended from, so I just went with the first immediate ancestor before the first Stuart king of England (James I) - the one who is responsible for bringing the Stuart line into the English monarchy - which was Darnley. Obviously it goes back much farther than that in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/195 "2009-12-23T06:09:25Z")
Okay, that makes sense. Of course, since the OP tried to claim that Darnley’s wife, Mary, was also black, I doubt he’ll agree with you. I’d also like to point out, that by his logic – that the “black/blue bloods” wore white make-up to look white, wouldn’t that basically mean that the whole powdered wig fashion was to make one look elderly? ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/196 "2009-12-23T06:44:48Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) > > Please consider images of a white Barack Obama. > Does these make him a white man? [Disclaimer: I haven’t read the entire thread] I’m not sure how photoshopped images of a man that is just as much “white” as he is “black” supports your argument. Did you know that Obama’s mom was a white chick? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/197 "2009-12-23T09:01:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If that is true, which of Charles II’s parents ([Charles I](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:King_Charles_I_by_Antoon_van_Dyck.jpg)& [Henrietta Maria of France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henrietta_Maria_01.jpg)) look black to you?? Chuck 1 was rocking some serious shoes… …man, why do I miss all the fun? Looking up Garibaldi Man has been a lot of fun for this half-Khoisan, I can tell you. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/198 "2009-12-23T11:21:25Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The first case I present is Charles II Stuart (1630-1685), King of England. Named The Black Boy, because he looked black. He was described as a tall black man. And James Boswell described him as The Swarthy Stuart. Mr. Codfried is presumably not going to return. But here goes anyhow… None of these examples can be accepted at, well, face-value. Take the claim that he was described as a ‘tall black man’. Well, you can indeed find dozens of online references to this claim, some from seemingly reputable printed sources. These are usually combined with the claim that it came from the wanted poster for him issued in 1651. But others instead give the quote as ‘a tall man, above two yards high’. Actually the original quote comes from a letter sent by the Parliamentarian Council of State to customs officials. The printed calendared version gives the full quote. > [@](#): > > _For your better discovery of him, take notice of him to be a tall man, above two yards high, his hair a deep brown, near to black, and has been, as we hear, cut off since the destruction of his army at Worcester, so that it is not very long…_ > > Mary Anne Everett Green (ed.), _Calendar of State Papers, Domestic Series, 1651_ (1877), 476. So the genuine description issued by his Parliamentarian enemies, who wanted him captured as a matter of the greatest urgency, failed to mention that he had black skin.:smack: The Boswell quote is even sillier. When Boswell wrote about ‘the swarthy Stuart’ being given ‘[t]he cream complexion of Hanover’, he was satirising a decision to paint white [the lead statue of Charles II](http://www.worldisround.com/articles/26441/photo15.html) in Parliament Square in Edinburgh. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/199 "2009-12-23T13:30:16Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Chameleons? > > **LouisB** , I don’t think so. He hasn’t mentioned the names of either book, nor any links of how to obtain them or whatever. If you google the guy, all you get is a bunch of the same stuff he’s spewing here. (Although do NOT click on the first google link you get. I was bombarded by pop-ups so bad I had to shut down firefox. The kind that ask you to download this or that program, and won’t let you take no for an answer. Total malaware site. If you want to read it, click on the “cached” link instead) > As for arguing with him, I’d say this is pretty entertaining. I don’t have enough time to waste with this guy IF he ever comes back and I wouldn’t read his books if he gave them to me. If you win an argument with a person of his caliber, what have you accomplished? ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/200 "2009-12-23T13:49:39Z")
On the off chance that the OP does come back: Is there any explanation for why the descendents of these black monarchs had become lily-white by the time photography had rolled around? I don’t recall too many photos in which Queen Elizabeth II or King George V or Queen Victoria have ‘black’ featues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=11)