# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/241 "2009-12-25T02:58:26Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > If you come from a place where your culture was stripped from you (or your ancestors, and by proxy, you) then you pretty much have to start from scratch. I used to work in a section of the public library where genealogy was pretty much our bread and butter. I’m certainly not an expert on genealogy but I was good enough to help beginners and to assist the experienced researchers when they required it. I quickly came to realize that helping our African American patrons was a bit different than helping our white patrons. Our black patrons often had the same problems that some of our white patrons had but they had one big additional problem. The big difference was, as I told them, “when you hit 1860 you’re going to hit a wall.” Unless their ancestor was a free man they weren’t going to find him or her listed in the census by name. There are ways for blacks researching genealogy to go farther but they’ll have to do a lot more work earlier than most whites in my experience. So I also tell them that it’s possible to get past that wall but it can be very difficult. A black coworker of mine managed to trace her ancestry back to the 18th century but a lot of it really isn’t the same kind of proof available to most whites. While I’ve never had a particular interest in my own genealogy I’ve always had the option to research it as far back as possible. Many African Americans will not be able to reliably trace their ancestry prior to 1860. There were only a few white patrons who had a real difficult time tracing their family tree to their country and town of origin. Nearly 100% (I didn’t take a scientific poll) of the black patrons I helped ran into serious trouble doing the same. For the vast majority of them I suspect it’s impossible to know with any certainty. > [@](#): > > But, I’m digressing. The point is, when you culture was taken from you, and you have to start from scratch, you tend to be in a very difficult position. I think I understand why it exists. I just can’t stomach teaching lies in order to bolster group image. I don’t tend to run across this kind of thing with black people though I do run across it quite a bit with white southerners because of my line of work. I’m talking about folks like the Sons of Confederate Veterans or the United Daughters of the Confederacy. You wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve had to correct the “Happy darkies in the field” interpretation of southern slavery. > [@](#): > > There you have the birth of a so-called Afrocentric. I went through the process myself, and I remember the pain of learning the truth about some of the lies I was taught (you mean, Jesus wasn’t a black man???) but it doesn’t compare the absolute joy of learning the truth about who my people really are, and all that we have to be proud of. Absolutely. One of the hard things about people teaching all the wrong things about history is that it’s extremely hard to change the minds of those who were taught that way. That’s what I run into when people with SCV or UDC folks. > [@](#): > > So, when you hear an Afrocentric person talking, (not the OP, I mean, a real one) try looking at them as someone on a journey. You can educate them and help them along on their journy. Personally I think most of Afrocentrism is less about history and more about forming a modern political and social ideology. I’m not so sure they’re on a journey any more than a member of the SCV is. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/242 "2009-12-25T17:46:24Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Good thing you give the permission to be, because there is plenty to be proud of. The black experience is quite unique. The fact that a nation can begin with putting a people down so low that the only way a black woman can make it into the white house is as actual, factual property, to coming to a point where she can sit at the head of the table as first lady of this great nation. That is a long way, baby. The fact that the _most_ put down of a put down people can still offer so much to the world culture (hip-hop, jazz,) from the very bottom of the ghetto is also very telling, for anyone paying attention. > > But I think what one would do well to think of, when they are getting worked up into an outrage over the ignorant claims of many Afrocentric people, is the _why_. > > If you come from a place where your culture was stripped from you (or your ancestors, and by proxy, you) then you pretty much have to start from scratch. And if you have to trust white people as the writers of history, which you kinda do if you are educated in American public schools, then you are going to have a bit of a trust issue. See, no matter how much we talk about how Africans sold their own people, there is no comparing African slavery to American slavery. The absolute institutionalized, organized kind of slavery that takes away names, abilities to learn and grow, histories, prides, and legacies forevermore, from generation to generation…that is quite different from the kind of slavery that other people have endured. So I really don’t understand why someone always makes a big production over pointing out that Africans sold slaves; it misses the point. > > But, I’m digressing. The point is, when you culture was taken from you, and you have to start from scratch, you tend to be in a very difficult position. > > When you grow up in the ghetto as a black person, you may go through some stages. Let me break them down: > > 1. You are born into a society and the game is already in motion. You are already a product of generations of blacks in this nation that has this huge history of slavery. Your parents come from an age of Jim Crow, you grandparents come from an age of something even harder, and it was their job to educate you. They teach you what they know. So you go to church and bow down to white jesus. Son of God. Basically, your black ass bows down to a white god every single night. > > 2. You accept images in the media that white is right, blue eyes are better, straight hair is great, booty-flat is where it’s at. You begin to grow resentful. The truth is, you come from a people that believed in your beauty, but you were cut off from that love generations ago, and your people were taught that you were ugly. Resentment begins to build. > > 3. You come of age at about 15. You begin to get into some of the rebellious energy going on around you. Malcolm X, Minister Farrakhan, young black men come up to you and teach you to stop bowing to a white god. Aint no white god in the sky gonna save you, YOU are god, black man! > > 4. You begin to read everything you can get your hands on that gives that message. You don’t have the kind of family that can send you to Ivy league universities, but you have some books that everyone in the hood passes around, and it tells you everything GOOD about being black, instead of all the bad things. > > There you have the birth of a so-called Afrocentric. I went through the process myself, and I remember the pain of learning the truth about some of the lies I was taught (you mean, Jesus wasn’t a black man???) but it doesn’t compare the absolute joy of learning the truth about who my people really are, and all that we have to be proud of. > > So, when you hear an Afrocentric person talking, (not the OP, I mean, a real one) try looking at them as someone on a journey. You can educate them and help them along on their journy. Or you can just go bananas and start seriously debating whether or not rock and roll is black or white. Either way. 1. Unique, sure; every culture’s is. Particularly special, no. 2. Black women as actual, factual property was invented in Africa, by blacks. 3. The history of a type of music played with (except maybe drums) with european instruments an beung influence in its origin by european music cannot therefore by pinned on any specific race. Of course, jazz/blues -with that name- is African-american, but beer was invented by sumerians and we don’t have to look towards Babylon after every party. 4. Do you know of ANY culture not ravaged by another? 5. Anyone not born with the game not already in motion? Because being born and already having 1000 people fucking you in the ass 24/7 is a common experience for 1/3 of the world’s population. 6. Beleived in your beauty? No no no. They sold you to whites. 7. Most people cannot go to Ivy league colleges. You try to somewaht justify a crazy idea by people with grudges (some of them understandalbe). BTW, in Peru, pretty much the same ideas gave us NOT just crazy books, but 15 years of terrorism. You can see how I’m not imporessed by your plight. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/243 "2009-12-25T18:48:41Z")
Aji de Gallina, I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not trying to be daft on purpose. I simply don’t follow you, and it seems you are all over the map. Let’s take number 6 for instance…what does my people selling me into slavery have to do with them finding black skin and features beautiful or teaching me that those features aren’t attractive? And number 3 has me scratching my head for real. _What are you talking about?_ ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/244 "2009-12-25T18:51:21Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aji de Gallina, I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not trying to be daft on purpose. I simply don’t follow you, and it seems you are all over the map. > > Let’s take number 6 for instance…what does my people selling me into slavery have to do with them finding black skin and features beautiful or teaching me that those features aren’t attractive? > > And number 3 has me scratching my head for real. _What are you talking about?_ I rather had the same reaction. Maybe English non-native lang expression barrier? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/245 "2009-12-25T20:14:47Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 1. Unique, sure; every culture’s is. Particularly special, no. I very strongly disagree with you here. As an ethnic/racial group African-Americans (AA) have a very unique history here in the Americas. To just focus on the US, AA endured ~300 years of slavery -and to sum that up in just one short sentence doesn’t do the full history justice. After which, as a group, they had to slowly fight for equal and fair treatment from both the government and their racially united/numerous neighbours; a fight which continues to this day. AA history is long, torturous and unique; chattel slavery (as practised in the US) can not compare to the historical use of things like indentured servitude. > [@](#): > > 1. Black women as actual, factual property was invented in Africa, by blacks. It would be more accurate to say \*\*women \*\*were/are considered property for a good amount of the developing world (which includes Africa). However this shouldn’t take away from **Nzinga, Seated** ’s point that throughout the colonial period and first half of the USA’s history, AA were not people, but property; to see an AA woman in the white house as the first lady (in my mind, at least) does show how long the country has grown from it’s twisted roots. I’d like to add: a lot of Africa still has a long way to go IRT women’s rights. > [@](#): > > 1. The history of a type of music played with (except maybe drums) with european instruments an beung influence in its origin by european music cannot therefore by pinned on any specific race. Of course, jazz/blues -with that name- is African-american, but beer was invented by sumerians and we don’t have to look towards Babylon after every party. You can say that the music genres created by AA folk musicians were influenced by historical European (in addition to African) contributions, but it is disingenuous to say that they can’t be “pinned on any specific race.” In addition to Blues and Jazz there are many other genres that have clear, documented AA roots: Gospel, R&B, Hip-Hop, etc. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you know of ANY culture not ravaged by another? I think what **Nzinga, Seated** was hinting at was the sheer totality, institutionalization and length of the cultural ravaging that was done to AA. They weren’t allowed to own anything not even their past, their culture, their history, their children, nor themselves. The only reason AA currently exist as a unique racial group (with unique cultural dialect/customs) is that they historical weren’t (under any reasonable circumstance or amount) allowed to integrate into the wider white society. Threats of personal/group violence and volumes of laws were written to keep “the blacks in their place.” This lasted for most of American history (about 400 years) and continued up until a few years ago; they had a strong affect for AA and most Americans are reluctant to even recongize that it even existed or the full extant of its current effects. > [@](#): > > 1. Anyone not born with the game not already in motion? Because being born and already having 1000 people fucking you in the ass 24/7 is a common experience for 1/3 of the world’s population. Yes, but I see no reason to ignore the AA experience because of this. > [@](#): > > 1. Beleived in your beauty? No no no. They sold you to whites. No doubt that some Africans contributed to the transatlantic slave trade in various capacities (including being slave traders), but **Nzinga, Seated** ’s point #2 was dealing on how western media is cratered to a light skinned majority and also how AA women were directly taught/depicted as ugly in comparison to European descended women. Frankly, your point in off track a little. > [@](#): > > 1. Most people cannot go to Ivy league colleges. True, but again a little off topic… > [@](#): > > You try to somewaht justify a crazy idea by people with grudges (some of them understandalbe). BTW, in Peru, pretty much the same ideas gave us NOT just crazy books, but 15 years of terrorism. You can see how I’m not imporessed by your plight. I think **Nzinga, Seated** is in favour of educating incorrect Afrocentrics, just not in freaking out yourself. BTW sorry **Nzinga, Seated** if I totally misread the meanings of your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/246 "2009-12-26T00:54:09Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aji de Gallina, I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not trying to be daft on purpose. I simply don’t follow you, and it seems you are all over the map. > > Let’s take number 6 for instance…what does my people selling me into slavery have to do with them finding black skin and features beautiful or teaching me that those features aren’t attractive? > > And number 3 has me scratching my head for real. _What are you talking about?_ I meant that while being told one’s features are ugly and distatesful is bad, being sold is much much worse You talked about how blacks invented some types of music and I commented on that. You mentioned that even though they were oppressed they created beautiful music and I said that that music came also from other non-black traditions. > [@orcenio](#): > > 1)I very strongly disagree with you here. As an ethnic/racial group African-Americans (AA) have a very unique history here in the Americas. To just focus on the US, AA endured ~300 years of slavery -and to sum that up in just one short sentence doesn’t do the full history justice. > A2)fter which, as a group, they had to slowly fight for equal and fair treatment from both the government and their racially united/numerous neighbours; a fight which continues to this day. AA history is long, torturous and unique; chattel slavery (as practised in the US) can not compare to the historical use of things like indentured servitude. > 3) It would be more accurate to say \*\*women \*\*were/are considered property for a good amount of the developing world (which includes Africa). However this shouldn’t take away from **Nzinga, Seated** ’s point that throughout the colonial period and first half of the USA’s history, AA were not people, but property; to see an AA woman in the white house as the first lady (in my mind, at least) does show how long the country has grown from it’s twisted roots. > 4)I’d like to add: a lot of Africa still has a long way to go IRT women’s rights. > 5)You can say that the music genres created by AA folk musicians were influenced by historical European (in addition to African) contributions, but it is disingenuous to say that they can’t be “pinned on any specific race.” In addition to Blues and Jazz there are many other genres that have clear, documented AA roots: Gospel, R&B, Hip-Hop, etc.I think what **Nzinga, Seated** was hinting at was the sheer totality, institutionalization and length of the cultural ravaging that was done to AA. They weren’t allowed to own anything not even their past, their culture, their history, their children, nor themselves. > 6)The only reason AA currently exist as a unique racial group (with unique cultural dialect/customs) is that they historical weren’t (under any reasonable circumstance or amount) allowed to integrate into the wider white society. Threats of personal/group violence and volumes of laws were written to keep “the blacks in their place.” This lasted for most of American history (about 400 years) and continued up until a few years ago; they had a strong affect for AA and most Americans are reluctant to even recongize that it even existed or the full extant of its current effects. > 7)Yes, but I see no reason to ignore the AA experience because of this. > No doubt that some Africans contributed to the transatlantic slave trade in various capacities (including being slave traders), but **Nzinga, Seated** ’s point #2 was dealing on how western media is cratered to a light skinned majority and also how AA women were directly taught/depicted as ugly in comparison to European descended women. Frankly, your point in off track a little. > True, but again a little off topic…I think **Nzinga, Seated** is in favour of educating incorrect Afrocentrics, just not in freaking out yourself. > > BTW sorry **Nzinga, Seated** if I totally misread the meanings of your posts. (my numbers) 1)Unique doesn’t mean anything in abstract. Being held as slaves for centuries is common. The really special thing is the geographical displacement. 1. Slaves as property are older than Hammurabi’s code, although chattel as thealmost exclusive way of servitude is more modern. 2. You’re right. I’ll rephrase. Blacks were considered propert by blacks centuries before whites came to boost the business. Mansa Musa brought his (property) slaves in his Hajj. 3. Agreed. 4. Of course Black music (in the U.S., the caribbean, and SOuth America) has been extremely influential. My point was that it they weren’t exclusively black. 5. Are you saying that, in a way, isolation preserved AA culture? Was it good? Keeping X in place is also common around history. 6. Blacks selling black whas happening waaaay before whites appeared in sub-saharan Africa. “Some” is an understatement, it is better to say that slavery in the way that developed in European places cannot have happended with the extensive collaboration of other blacks. Agreed that AA have to rediscover their history and traditions and be happy about them ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/247 "2009-12-26T03:10:25Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Agreed that AA have to rediscover their history and traditions and be happy about them Why? I don’t mean to sound flippant, but I don’t believe in genetic memory and such, so why do modern American blacks have to culturally reconnect with Africa? Isn’t it possible to glom onto other traditions (or make up new ones) and be happy with them? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/248 "2009-12-26T03:21:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why? > > I don’t mean to sound flippant, but I don’t believe in genetic memory and such, so why do modern American blacks have to culturally reconnect with Africa? Isn’t it possible to glom onto other traditions (or make up new ones) and be happy with them? I didn’t mention Africa specifically. They can re-connect with 200 year-old culture. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/249 "2009-12-26T03:32:30Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I didn’t mention Africa specifically. They can re-connect with 200 year-old culture. Yes, but… why should they? Age alone doesn’t convey validity or usefulness. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/250 "2009-12-26T03:57:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, but… why should they? Age alone doesn’t convey validity or usefulness. I don’t understand what point you’re coming to. Tradition and history are the stuff cultures are made of. Knowing these things helps you to figure out why things are the way they are today, and, sometimes, where you’re going in the future. There’s a reason why so many different groups fight tooth and nail to control how we interpret the past. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/251 "2009-12-26T07:46:49Z")
Suppose hypothetically, every black person (however one want to define the term) in American converted to Sunni Islam or Judaism or some new faith and became utterly indifferent to any African ancestry they might have and profoundly disinterested in any ritualistic practices any of their ancestors might have embraced, regardless of time or place. I’m just asking about “rediscover **their** history and traditions” (emphasis added). What if they prefer someone else’s, or to make up a new one? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/252 "2009-12-26T08:46:13Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Scots-Irish indentured servants (white slaves) Not even close. That’s downright embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/253 "2009-12-26T09:00:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Suppose hypothetically, every black person (however one want to define the term) in American converted to Sunni Islam or Judaism or some new faith and became utterly indifferent to any African ancestry they might have and profoundly disinterested in any ritualistic practices any of their ancestors might have embraced, regardless of time or place. I’m just asking about “rediscover **their** history and traditions” (emphasis added). What if they prefer someone else’s, or to make up a new one? How many blacks do you know who want to find out what part of Africa their ancestors came from or what white person owned them? You’re arguing against a minority viewpoint here. Blacks ARE developing their own culture and history and traditions, right now. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/254 "2009-12-26T11:59:06Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Not even close. That’s downright embarrassing. Pretty damn close. Have you studied the colonial indentured servant trade? I have. I wrote my senior history thesis on it. Much of the white indentured servitude was de facto slavery. There were “servants” brought over who had _no_ chance of ever paying off their indenture. There were also “criminals” sent over to the colonies, for the crime of being Irish. Hundreds of these people were worked to death in Barbados - dying in droves from dysentery and malaria - before they were supplanted by black slaves. There were also people who were “spirited” away - one night they would be drunk in a Bristol bar and they would wake up the next morning in the hold of a cargo ship bound for the colonies or the West Indies with a bunch of other poor bastards who were kidnapped by the “labor recruiters” who were paid per head. There was also the fact that the master of an indentured servant would often work that servant harder than he would a black slave, because a black slave was seen as a long-term investment (remember, they were quite expensive) and a white indentured servant was seen as a short term one. In theory this means that they could have the chance to serve out their indenture. In practice it meant that they would often just be worked to death. The Irish were literally considered subhuman and nobody cared if they dropped dead; they could be easily replaced. Hundreds of years later many of the descendants of these indentured servants (now called “white trash”) are still living in extreme poverty and are trapped in a cycle of what is more or less class slavery, especially in today’s shitty economy and the decline of American “hard industry.” Ironically, if their ancestors had never left Ireland or Scotland, they would now be living with universal healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/255 "2009-12-26T13:19:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Pretty damn close. Not really. Debt servitude did transmit generation after generation as a default such that descendants today bear the stigma, nor was is common to sell off said servants children, use their women as sex slaves, etc. However ugly the life of indentured servant > [@](#): > > There was also the fact that the master of an indentured servant would often work that servant harder than he would a black slave, because a black slave was seen as a long-term investment (remember, they were quite expensive) and a white indentured servant was seen as a short term one. **Cite** , nothing I have ever read has suggested this was the case. Mortality in the British colonies among black slaves (until the decision to shut down the slave trade came) was staggeringly high. Thus the need to constantly import. > [@](#): > > In theory this means that they could have the chance to serve out their indenture. In practice it meant that they would often just be worked to death. The Irish were literally considered subhuman and nobody cared if they dropped dead; they could be easily replaced. And the Irish were considered less sub-human (in fact not sub-human, merely inferior) than black Africans. You’re massively over-reaching here. Massively. > [@](#): > > Hundreds of years later many of the descendants of these indentured servants (now called “white trash”) are still living in extreme poverty and are trapped in a cycle of what is more or less class slavery, especially in today’s shitty economy and the decline of American “hard industry.” Ironically, if their ancestors had never left Ireland or Scotland, they would now be living with universal healthcare. Utter tripe and Bollocks, excepting your rural uplanders, most descendants of said servants are fine solid ordinary white Americans. Calling your rural uplanders poverty “class slavery” borders on the grotesque (and deeply misplaced envy of victimhood, rather American that feature). > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 1. Blacks selling black whas happening waaaay before whites appeared in sub-saharan Africa. “Some” is an understatement, it is better to say that slavery in the way that developed in European places cannot have happended with the extensive collaboration of other blacks. Agreed that AA have to rediscover their history and traditions and be happy about them White selling white, black selling black… Until the emergence of race based slavery in the American colonies, whether Spanish, Portugues or British, (etc), none of this has a racial tint as such. No doubt the African side of the equation can’t have it’s role white-washed (ha), but the unique racialisation of slavery in the Americas such that African descended people clearly still bear a stigma (I am also looking at you Latins and the queer way the telenovelas for example continue to present your blacks) is in fact a rather nasty thing that Americas blacks uniquely have to deal with. Of course Nzinga seems to have a fairly balanced view of dealing with that, and it ain’t the end all-be all of explanations. But neither should it be dismissed as such. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/256 "2009-12-26T14:17:26Z")
Dear Friends, Thank you for the many questions, and you are definitely a polite bunch. Which makes things a lot easier. I cannot possibly answer all questions from the last three pages at once, but hope to do so in the times ahead. Sorry for my language, English is my third language, I speak five. (Cease rather then sees! sorry)At the library I will use the spelling function wich allows me to write and publish in english. Blue blood is black blood is a theory, part hypothesis and I’m bouncing ideas and learning as we go along as its also a work in progress. The theory is based on personal descriptions. I started with the Stuarts and any book about them will mention Charles II Stuart as black, tall or gangly with a thin neck, named the black boy and a tall black man, with James Boswell calling him the swarthy Stuart. It’s striking that some folks never come to absorb these sources and cannot balance them with the three black engravings I offer. It impossible to discuss this further with people who seem to experience intellectual blokkage. The question is next, why is a man described as black presented to us as white? Would a whitened Obama do, even if he is only half black? Anyone is free to research anything and I found the fact that kings described as black are shown and believed to be white. That’s wrong! I find this a legitimate scientific problem. I think racism is a big problem, I suffer from racism and I want it to end. By finding the cause, we will cure this disease. Here I offer further evidence, sources of blacks in Europe. Blue blood derives from blue men, an euphemism for black Europeans (500-1500). Egmond Codfried \*\*INTERNET SOURCES OF BLUE MEN IN EUROPE (500-1500) \*\* More information about European Blacks, provided by Marc Washington, the Blue Men(500-1500) who were the ancestors of the strictly intermarriying Blue Blood’s: the European Kings and Nobles (1500-1789). Mention is made of Charlotte Sophie as showing her Wendel blood in her face. Charles X of Sweden was also King of the Wendels. He looks very mixed African on some portraits. FOR AGES BLACK PEOPLE WERE CALLED BLUE PEOPLE BY EUROPEANS Here I have collected some pieces on the internet regarding calling Black people, Blue people. Then I have recently read a newspaper report about a new exposition in Amsterdam : ‘Black is Beatiful,’ that Blue people show up on Middle Ages images. I’m searching for these. But I have already seen images of this era which show Blacks among the Whites. This supports my understanding of Bleu Blood means Black Blood, which connects with the frequently used dominant image of the Moor in European art, from the Renaissance. The other explanations what Blue Blood means, posted on the internet, I consider ludicrous! Egmond Codfried ================================================== Quote: Were there ever any black Vikings? There were trade routes between Northern Europe and Africa, India and China, so it is very likely that people from all over the world would have visited Scotland. It is also likely that some Northern Europeans would have settled in other parts of the world and some people from Africa, India and other areas would have settled in Northern Europe. Direct evidence of this is rather hard to find, however. There’s a complication in translations of medieval records because a description of someone as “a black man” was used to mean someone with black hair, not black skin. Norse sagas describe Africans as “Blaumenn” (blue men). There are stories of Blaumenn in Dublin and of someone called Kenneth of Niger in Scotland in the 10th Century. # [http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/faq.html#question11](http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/faq.html#question11) In the middle ages Muslims were considered as bad or even worse than heathens, because they worshipped Muhammad, who was an Antichrist to Christians. There are not many episodes in Heimskringla that concern Muslims, or ‘blámenn’ as they are called in the sagas. King Sigurd Jorsalafar is said to have fought heathens in Spain on his way to Jerusalem. He plundered with his crew on the island of Formentera, where there was a ‘herr mikill heiðinna blámanna’. Sigurd’s men win the battle of course (Msona chs. V-VI). Heimskringla does not mention anything about Muslim beliefs, but obviously there was no need to clarify the evilness of the blámenn to the audience since the word ‘blár’ reveals that these men were very different from the heroic King Sigurd and his men. Even though blár means ‘blue,’ in this case it signifies ‘black.’ These ‘blue men’ lived in Spain or the south Mediterranean. ‘Blámenn’ refers not only to literally black men, but also to Arabs and Moors. The use of the term ‘blámenn’ indicates that the writer wanted to stress that they were of different ethnic origin than the Norse people. We should also remember, too, that in the fornaldarsögur the term ‘blámenn’ refers to earthly creatures of evil (e.g. ‘blámenn ok berserkir’ Lindow, 1995, 13-14). This ethnic implication was probably more important to the intended audience of the saga than any, rightly omitted, information about the religious beliefs of the blámenn. # [http://www.dur.ac.uk/medieval.www/sagaconf/aalto.htm](http://www.dur.ac.uk/medieval.www/sagaconf/aalto.htm) Frances 488. Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:26 pm I’m sure I read that black men were called ‘blue men’ by the Vikings. Also that some African tribes have no separate words for blue and green, as the differentiation is of no importance in their necessary world-view. However, they can readily recognise the difference when it’s pointed out to them. The same as we don’t have four hundred words for different aspects of camels, as I’m told Arabs do, only in reverse. If you see what I mean. =============================================== # In Magnúss sona saga (ch. 6) King Sigurd makes a journey to the Holy Land. On his way he fights with the “heathen blámenn” on the Spanish Isles of Menorca and Ibiza. These socalled “blue men” in the saga are Moors. The word blár means here ‘black’ and blámenn referred to the inhabitants of Blálönd – Black Lands, which was an undefined, faraway geographical area in the minds of the learned medieval Scandinavians. As the word itself reveals, it was the black skin that mattered. In the fornaldarsögur blámenn were associated with forces of evil. Nevertheless, blámenn referred later not only to black men but also to Moors and Saracens. So, here we have the thin line between the supernatural and ethnically different enemies, which is by no means a deviating feature in the Heimskringla (or in other Old Norse sources).22 As the giants of the Old Norse mythology became the Finnar in historical writings, so did the blámenn of the fornaldarsögur become the enemies of Christianity: black men, Saracens, Moors. As John Lindow has pointed out, it must have been difficult to draw a line between the supernatural and the natural in these contexts. Lindow has also observed that what is striking about the description of strangers and other groups in Nordic tradition are “how closely they resemble attributes of supernatural Ennen ja nyt 4/2004 \>\>\> [http://www.ennenjanyt.net/404/](http://www.ennenjanyt.net/404/) referee/aalto.pdf # 7 beings”.23 In fact, in the Middle Ages there hardly existed a division between the supernatural and the natural. In people’s minds angels were as real as demons. It is obvious that in the Middle Ages Icelanders and Norwegians must have had a faint understanding of faroff places that they knew only by name: Spain, Sicily, Jerusalem, Byzantium. But it seems that the geographical distance had less importance than religion when regarding the “otherness” of people. Namely, the Christian concept of the world was that it consisted of Christian peoples. Heathens and heretics did not belong to their world: they were outside of Christendom. It seems that this Christian worldview is perceptible also in the Heimskringla, as strangers are those who stand outside the Christian community. These outsiders are described as extremely different. “Otherness” based on ethnic difference does not seem to play a major part in the Heimskringla. In the case of blámenn it is obvious that skin colour that differed from the standard is one factor that makes them different, but I would see the skin colour only as a feature that emphasises that blámenn were evil and enemies of Christianity as were also the Wends. All in all, heathens in the Heimskringla seem to be strangers without any category, which would mean that their degree of difference is digital. # The True root of Hoy by Blue Man on 27.2.2004 Those mired in the constraints of the modern world, would be hard pressed to allow themselves to believe the truth of the origins of this sacred word- Hoi Hoy, which is most generally spelled Hoi, has a root far earlier than most understand. It has become a greeting associated with those who know the TRUTH of the origins of Man. Ahhh, he must be crazy you say?!. The Hoi greeting is most often traced to seafaring civilizations, who had significant contact with the mammals of the sea. The Hoi Hoi sound is that made by porpoises to communiate (greet) each other. Over time this sound was adopted by Vikings, Scotsman, Polynesians, Islanders, etc. as a Universal Greeting. When the legendary Blue Men (Hoi Gollokai) (Mermaid like creatures- with wizardlike powers of song, luck, art, and creativity)) due to their higher consciousness (like dolphins) left the oceans to return to land, thus beginning their interaction and intermingling with early humans (Cro Magnon). This eventual interbreeding led to lineages far more intelligent with a higher consciousness than existed before. These lineages can be traced to several ancient civilizations, most notably in Scotland and Ireland, where the Galukai came out of the brakish waters of the Lochs. Ancient Scottish castles on the Lochs (, bear some as yet unknown signifiance in this history. Mummified remains of these ancient sea creatures can be found in some museums. I have seen them. “The Luck O the Irish”, has a basis in fact, for the redheaded descendants of the Golokai, who came from the sea, eventually mating with humans. If you analyze photography of bluemen, colors, similar to dolphins, and convert them to negatives you get bluegreen. Irish/Scottish redheads, seen in the negative (as in the sea), appear this exact color- bluemen. There also exists other strains of these breedings who came from the polynesian and island peoples. These peoples, some alive today, possibly with the surname Hoy or Hoi, possess qualities of lucidity, creativity, higher consciousness, sensitivity to sound, generally very musical, or artisitic, have a special affinity for the water, and seem to age slowly. Even the Hopi Indians of the SouthWest, who arose from remnants of the Mayans, who knew these secrets, have as one of their deities- The Red Beard LongHair. Shown as a Kachina- he is the spirit who brings the water and rain to the land. Sound farfetched ? I have done my research. New clues from the underwater lost city off the coast of Cuba that has been found, as well as pyramid anomolies in the OceanPacific due West of Oregon/California coast should prove interesting… Stay tuned. Hoi Hoi has become the international greeting for those with the higher consciousness, yet who stay in the shadows. There may also be a link with sacred Orders such as the FreeMasons… who came from this Old World- New Order… There are other very interesting parallels, that I don’t have time to discuss, relating to a self-perpetuating semantic phenomenon. The The. strange and interesting comparisons to the mathematics of Fractal Chaos theory, and the iterations of equations that create a “Mandelbrot Set” formation… Truth is Stranger than Fiction !! Hoi Hoi !! Long live the Porpoise People ! P.S. The word porpoise comes from Porcus (Pig) + Piscis (Fish)= PigFish… mammal interbred with fish… sounded with the oi sound that the dolphin makes. Ignorant humanoids descended from simians… enlightened Man descended from sea creatures that returned to the sea after having lived on land, and then rebred with existing mammalian humanoids… BELIEVE… Hoi Hoi !! Some believe in aliens from outer space… but here on earth is the evidence of the truth from our own oceans !!! # Their little lecture concerning the relationship between grapheme and phoneme in the Greek and Russian alphabets is hardly more trustworthy. Per says: “We must remember that in both the Greek and Russian alphabets the letters “b” and “v” are identical, and so are “o” and “u”…” (p. 137 our translation). Obviously, they have not understood that one letter can symbolize different sounds in the same or related alphabets. The Russians and the modern Greeks distinguish between b and v and between o and u in both speech and spelling; a fact which the first lesson in any textbook on these languages would have revealed. Even when it comes to Snorri’s own language, the two authors are surprisingly ignorant. When discussing the meaning and location of Bláland (The Blue Land, i.e. the Land of the Blue Men) (pp. 29), they fail to acknowledge that the adjective blár in Old Norse may also mean dark. Their discussions around the meaning of the place-name Svitjod (Old Norse Svífljó›) also end in a total shambles when they introduce a pseudo-Norse explanation which is grammatically impossible (p. 30). [http://www.hf.uib.no/i/Nordisk/MaalogMinne/artikler/heyerdahl-v1.pdf](http://www.hf.uib.no/i/Nordisk/MaalogMinne/artikler/heyerdahl-v1.pdf) Three key questions arise at this point: What did the very first Norse travelers to North America in fact call the people they met there, well over a century before Ari the Learned penned his history? Did the reference to “Skrælings” occur in the first version of Ari’s work, the original of which no longer exists? And what was the word Skræling(j)ar intended to signify?18 18 As handed down through the pertinent medieval literature, the word Skræling(j)ar deliberately conveys small size as the chief characteristic of the native people the Norse met on their voyages farthest west. (From innumerable examples, we know that the names the medieval Norse gave to new people and places were based on what they considered a main characteristic.19) There is also fairly good scholarly agreement that in a literary context, Skræling(j)ar was used pejoratively to indicate puny physical stature—a quality disdained by the medieval Norse. While the word therefore suggests a possible etymological link to the modern Norwegian word skral, used about people or objects in poor condition,20 that linkage is not readily acceptable to linguistic scholars. However, the philologist Kari Ellen Gade proposes that if the word skræling(j)ar was coined orally shortly before its first-time written use in Ari’s book, the commonly accepted rules for vowel changes and consonant doubling in Old Norse might not apply.21 19 Examples are the names Leif Eiriksson gave to the three main North American regions he found, and the term blámenn (“blue men”) applied to the black people the Norse encountered in North Africa. # [http://www.historycooperative.org/cgi-bin/justtop.cgi?act=justtop&url=http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/19.1/seaver.html](http://www.historycooperative.org/cgi-bin/justtop.cgi?act=justtop&url=http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/19.1/seaver.html) # [http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html](http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html) JSTOR: Royal Purple of Tyre- [Vertaal deze pagina]Negroids and some “Moors” were called “blue-men” in early Irish-Norse Chronicles.36 … Purple in the Middle Ages was used for sacred and royal purposes … [links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-2968(196304)22%3A2\<104%3ARPOT\>2.0.CO%3B2-U](http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-2968(196304)22%3A2%3C104%3ARPOT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U) - Gelijkwaardige pagina’s ================================================== Etymology and definitions Blueberries.The modern English word blue comes from the Middle English, bleu or blwe, which came from an Old French word bleu of Germanic origin (Frankish or possibly Old High German blao, “shining”). Bleu replaced Old English blaw. The root of these variations was the Proto-Germanic blæwaz, which was also the root of the Old Norse word bla and the modern Icelandic blár, and the Scandinavian word blå, but it can refer to other colours. A Scots and Scottish English word for “blue-grey” is blae, from the Middle English bla (“dark blue,” from the Old English blæd). Ancient Greek lacked a word for colour blue and Homer called the colour of the sea “wine dark”, except that the word kyanos (cyan) was used for dark blue enamel. As a curiosity, blue is thought to be cognate with blond, blank and black through the Germanic word. Through a Proto-Indo-European root, it is also linked with Latin flavus (“yellow”; see flavescent and flavine), with Greek phalos (white), French blanc (white, blank) (loaned from Old Frankish), and with Russian белый, belyi (“white,” see beluga), and Welsh blawr (grey) all of which derive (according to the American Heritage Dictionary) from the Proto-Indo-European root \*bhel- meaning “to shine, flash or burn”, (more specifically the word bhle-was, which meant light coloured, blue, blond, or yellow), whence came the names of various bright colours, and that of colour black from a derivation meaning “burnt” (other words derived from the root \*bhel- include bleach, bleak, blind, blink, blank, blush, blaze, flame, fulminate, flagrant and phlegm). In the English language, blue may refer to the feeling of sadness. “He was feeling blue”. This is because blue was related to rain, or storms, and in Greek mythology, the god Zeus would make rain when he was sad (crying), and a storm when he was angry. Kyanos was a name used in Ancient Greek to refer to dark blue tile (in English it means blue-green or cyan).[3] The phrase “feeling blue” is linked also to a custom among many old deepwater sailing ships. If the ship lost the captain or any of the officers during its voyage, she would fly blue flags and have a blue band painted along her entire hull when returning to home port. [4] Many languages do not have separate terms for blue and or green, instead using a cover term for both (when the issue is discussed in linguistics, this cover term is sometimes called grue in English). Blue is commonly used on internet browsers to colour a link that has not been clicked; when a link has been clicked it changes yellow or orange or purple. Back to top ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/257 "2009-12-26T14:24:18Z")
Yo **Egmond Codfried** , we all missed ya! ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/258 "2009-12-26T14:28:47Z")
[http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get\_topic;f=15;t=001810;p=1#000000](http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001810;p=1#000000) [http://www.artunframed.com/images/compressed7/lorenzomonaco.jpg](http://www.artunframed.com/images/compressed7/lorenzomonaco.jpg) A very important European Renaissance image showing dark saints, a Black Jesus and a Blue Maria. The other site offers posting of images. Why would they make black images of saints and gods? Why a blue maria? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/259 "2009-12-26T14:39:44Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Yo **Egmond Codfried** , we all missed ya! I invite readers to delve into that part of history where eurocentrism tell us ‘there were no blacks.’ Blacks are identified with slavery wich lasted 500 years while black civilisation lasted 10.000 years. Let’s speak about the 9.500 years. As whites come out of blacks they are in no way superior to blacks. In thirthy years in Holland I never saw any proof of any superiority, not intellectual, morally, physically or in looks. They are rather brainwashed in hating the other, that’s all they have known as a person. They assume that the other hates them too. So they will not make any concession, but rather not give blacks like me a voice. I have been laughed at in my face and people keep insisting that my reearch is based on images. Those are secondary to my research. People have to look at the personal descriptions mentioned in many biographies, written by white proffesors who then go on pasting fake, whitenend portraits in their books. It’s wrong! Museums should be taken to task, using our tax money to show a cruel revisionism of history promoting white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/260 "2009-12-26T14:50:16Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > This makes no sense. You’re saying white Americans didn’t want to be dominated by black royals. This means that white Americans knew that the royals were (supposedly) black. However, there is no mention of this in any of the revolutionary propaganda at the time. Do you have a cite of some American decrying the European black nobility? Nothing would make the southern colonies rebel against England faster than the claim that the rulers were black. > > Likewise, you say… > > Do you have a cite of any French revolutionary leading the masses with allegations of black nobility? Good questions! Do you aknowledge former Apartheid in South Africa as unjust? Do you agree there is something very wrong in the US with all these black men in prison. Unless of course you believe blacks to be inferiour and more criminal then whites. I believe that Bush bombed the US on 9/11, mostly because I do not believe this vaporised planes B.S. Then they went on to make a movie about a plane, vaporised in a field, which never existed at all. Do you agree that Americans, white and black are scared s…less from their own government? Does this not show how oppressive a government can become if not checked and how lies can be perpetrated. They are even talking avbout a 9/11 museum in NY displaying all these lies. I want to bet no one of you will answer this posting in a candid fashion. By now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=14)