# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/301 "2010-01-02T17:43:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Well, duh! I mentioned the Georges, right? > > Oh noes - they were actually white, which is why the Revolution happened. Washington, Jefferson, Adams - all black, rebelling against the newly white English king. And slavery? Well, the slaves were actually white, and got painted on the ship. That’s why so many died - pores closed up like in **Goldfinger.** I think I feel a (self published) book coming on. > Me too. When I was 10 and living in Africa I read this massive history of the English kings and drew up a family tree which I gave to this Brit who lived in an apartment in our villa. I have to get around to reading the rest of Churchill’s **History of the English Speaking People** some day. I read the War of the Roses part after reading Shakespeare so I could tell what actually went on. try many sources! Washington is shown with a little Moor, a symbol of his blue blood. He is not his coloured valet. West Ford was Washingtons black son John Hanson was black from swedish origins Elisabeth I was described as dark and famous for painting her face white. Find the contemporary descriptions of her mother Anna Boleyn: very dark, black eyes and dark hair. Shakespeare begins his Hamlet with ; cast of the nighted colour. It’s a joke about Hamlet being the colour of the night as a true prince of denmark ---
**Author:** ![annelions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@annelions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annelions)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/302 "2010-01-02T17:46:07Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [bluebloodisblackblood@hotmail.com](mailto:bluebloodisblackblood@hotmail.com) > > There are fake descriptions too, mostly 19th century when they were busy hiding their troubled past. Or discriptions were misunderstood: bad complexion did not mean acne or pockmarks, but black skin. > My research started with Belle van Zuylen (1739-1805), Isabelle de Charriere, a dutch barones. She states : ‘I do not have the white hands, I know ite and even joke about it but colour is no joking matter.’ She calls herself Zelide after a Egyptian princess in an opera by Voltaire. In her books we often find black and colour principle characters. all her partners are black and noble, she seem to be going for the blackest ones, to have blacker children. > Yet a biographer says; she was a typical blond blue eyed Dutch girl. > Find her grandmother Maria Jacoba van Goor (1687-1737) who looks quite African to most viewers. Women the world over have always been vain and exaggerated what they see. I don’t know why she made the comment. Maybe she tanned too easily. Tanning has, until the past 30 years or so, been horribly out of fashion. Tan meant you had to work outside. That doesn’t discount her still being a “typical blond blue eyed Dutch girl”. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/303 "2010-01-02T17:46:43Z")
That portrait you posted from Wikipedia/media makes Charles II look eerily close in appearance to Woody Allen [http://digestao.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/woody-allen2.jpg](http://digestao.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/woody-allen2.jpg) [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charles\_II\_of\_England\_Stuart\_by\_John\_Riley.JPG](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_II_of_England_Stuart_by_John_Riley.JPG) ZOMG! 17th century European nobility has been infected with New York Jewry! (or, a Mr. Potato Head clone) [http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/5768/698002-mrpotato\_head\_large.jpg](http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/5768/698002-mrpotato_head_large.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/304 "2010-01-02T17:46:59Z")
> [@bikebloke](#): > > Why is that? All good scientific research starts with defining the subject. Is Paula Abdul black, even after a nose job? Is Obama black? The one drop rule. Is Kobe Bryant black, his nose is pointy and his lips narrow. Is actress Iman black or white? Is a man described as the black boy, a tall black man and the swarthy stuart white or black? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/305 "2010-01-02T17:49:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Duh. They all became sparkly vampires and the dazzle of the sparkling fools the camera into seeing their skin color as the kind of off-beige that is the natural heritage of us normal descendants of albinos. The art of retouched was used from the beginning. 19th century nobility were still using white make up. They were struggling to become white, which takes four generations. Jus imagine an old person wanting to look young, or less fat and an obliging photographer. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/306 "2010-01-02T17:54:28Z")
[RIGHT][/RIGHT] > [@Guinastasia](#): > > You mean [this dude](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg)? Um, he looks pretty white too me. I mean, he’s pretty fly for a white guy\* and all, but yeah, he’s white. > > \*Although if you take off the wig and the bling and such, he looks like the kind of guy who’d wear wife-beaters and sandals with black socks. And then yell at the kids to get the hell off his lawn. Like Tom Anderson. Boy, I tellya what. > **[louis xiv codfried - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=louis%20xiv%20codfried&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)** Its the 7th image, a black and white engraving. > **[Kennisgeving voor omleiding](http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http:%2F%2Fgeschichte.surfbrett.at%2Ftuerken_1683%2Fimages%2Fludwig%2520XIV.jpg&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fthestudyofracialism.org%2Fabout5105-100.html&usg=__Rf15Q_c3RnjHXewKY6eAenXh3PM=&h=497&w=354&sz=50&hl=nl&start=7&um=1&tbnid=TfsPaYP-SLCI3M:&tbnh=130&tbnw=93&prev=%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dlouis%2Bxiv%2Bcodfried%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)** ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/307 "2010-01-02T17:57:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > What is this “solution” you speak of? I’ve read the whole thread and haven’t found one. Understanding where it came from and how white supremacy is still maintained. The only people who will be interested are the person who will benefit from a change. People who benefit from the present status quo will not lift a finger to change the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/308 "2010-01-02T18:02:35Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Charles II: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_II_when_Prince_of_Wales_by_William_Dobson,_1642.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_II_Prince_of_Wales_Egmont.jpg) > > His father: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles,_Prince_of_Wales_%28later_Charles_I%29_by_Isaac_Oliver.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_I_as_Duke_of_York_and_Albany_Robert_Peake.jpg) > > His mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sir_Peter_Lely_001.jpg) > > Father’s father: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:James_VI_of_Scotland_aged_20,_1586..jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:James_I,_VI_by_John_de_Critz,_c.1606..png) > > Father’s mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anne_of_Denmark_mourning_the_death_of_her_son_Henry_in_1612.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anne_of_Denmark-1605.jpg) > > Mother’s father: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_IV_of_france_by_pourbous_younger.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_IV_en_Herculeus_terrassant_l_Hydre_de_Lerne_cad_La_ligue_Catholique_Atelier_Toussaint_Dubreuil_circa_1600.jpg) > > Mother’s mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MariadeMedici07.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peter_Paul_Rubens_095b.jpg) > > Father’s father’s father: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry-stuart-darnley.jpg) > > Father’s father’s mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mary_Stuart_Queen.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YoungMaryStuart.jpg) > > Father’s mother’s father: [1](http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/frederickII_denmark.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frederik_2.jpg) > > Father’s mother’s mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sophiemecklenburgdenmark.jpg) > > Mother’s father’s father: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Antoine-de-bourbon.jpg) > > Mother’s father’s mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jeanne-albret-navarre.jpg) > > Mother’s mother’s father: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FrancescodeMedici.jpg) [2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Francesco_I_de_Medici.jpg) > > Mother’s mother’s mother: [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Johanna_of_Austria_rubens.jpg) > > Overall, I’d vote that his ancestry sure looks white. > **[white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white+obama&btnG=Afbeeldingen+zoeken&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=)** “white Obama” I know its hard but my research is based on personal descriptions of Charles II Stuart named The black boy, described as a tall black man and the swarthy stuart. This has to stand for something, no? We are shown revisionist, whitened fakes or authentic propogandistic portraits. Why would whites paint themselves whites? why all these Moors in heraldry and portraits with nobles? ---
**Author:** ![annelions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@annelions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annelions)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/309 "2010-01-02T18:07:55Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > All good scientific research starts with defining the subject. Is Paula Abdul black, even after a nose job? Is Obama black? The one drop rule. Is Kobe Bryant black, his nose is pointy and his lips narrow. > Is actress Iman black or white? > Is a man described as the black boy, a tall black man and the swarthy stuart white or black? “Swarthy” has also been used to describe Asians who look nothing like any Negro. Anyone not chalk-white, for whatever reason, is “swarthy”. > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The art of retouched was used from the beginning. 19th century nobility were still using white make up. They were struggling to become white, which takes four generations. > Jus imagine an old person wanting to look young, or less fat and an obliging photographer. I still don’t understand why they would want to “become” white, if being “black” was a symbol of nobility. Either it was a symbol, and others wanted to emulate them (of which we have no record), or whiteness was a symbol and others wanted to emulate them (of which we DO have record of white makeup being applied). If you doubt how much rulers can influence fashion, I suggest you might want to read up on the [codpiece](http://www.renaissancedancewear.com/codpices.html). I’ve heard it theorized that they reached their prominence in the 1540’s because Henry VIII was unable to produce a male heir and, in order to assure his ‘virility’, took to wearing rather large codpieces. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/310 "2010-01-02T18:14:18Z")
> [@Danika](#): > > Well if I talk about a person with swarthy skin I mean a person who looks South European. That meaning he has white skin but isn’t as pale as people in Northern Europe. They identified with images of Moors, a classical pitch black african, and married endogamous, wanting to keep the black colour and being particulary pleased when a baby popped out who looked like a moor. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/311 "2010-01-02T18:19:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In other words, both your theory that European nobility was actually soul brothers, and your ideas about 9/11, are the sheerest moonshine, and lack any connection to reality at all. > > Regards, > Shodan [http://stj911.org/evidence/docs/P200059\_1.jpg](http://stj911.org/evidence/docs/P200059_1.jpg) This is a vaporized plane! Only in Star Trek if you ask me. This might be OT but internet forums are awashed with persons who are payed by our governments to make sure folks do not stray from the path of truth as the government sees it. ---
**Author:** ![annelions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@annelions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annelions)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/312 "2010-01-02T18:25:48Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://stj911.org/evidence/docs/P200059\_1.jpg](http://stj911.org/evidence/docs/P200059_1.jpg) > > This is a vaporized plane! Only in Star Trek if you ask me. > This might be OT but internet forums are awashed with persons who are payed by our governments to make sure folks do not stray from the path of truth as the government sees it. There is no size reference there, so I have no idea if what I’m seeing is 3 inches, 3 feet or 3 miles long. Oh, wait, that’s a person in the upper middle there? Hm. Doesn’t look like an investigative photo. Looks like what’s left AFTER the investigators get in and cart off the biggest chunks/important bits. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/313 "2010-01-02T18:31:50Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > You said my post had good questions and then didn’t respond to any of them. Do you have a cite of American Revolutionary propaganda claiming that the European royals were black? You know, this is called a discussion site, but I cannot see you, and I do not know your views on anything. I do not recall you aknowledging any of my sources and arguments. Its just you demanding in a high tone of voice evidence. So I have posted you as an analogy a present controversy about who planned and executed 9/11 with all of us bearing witness but prohibited to give an opinion freely for fear of some tracking governmental computer adding our name to a list of suspects of terrorism. People can get in trouble with putting things on paper or harboring such things. As for your question: we should look at the declaration of human rights as blacks citizens, non-noble black Europeans but also whites asking for equal rights. I have been reading about Champollion, who treanslated Egyptian hieroglyphes, coming from an area of France where people being prosecuted for their revolutionary actions in earlier years. France had become a monarchy again. If you yourself did any research, you might better understand my problems in getting to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/314 "2010-01-02T18:38:39Z")
Your problem with getting to the “facts” is that you have none. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/315 "2010-01-02T18:39:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Do you really believe that, or are you pretending? Jews didn’t come from Africa. They came from Israel, and moved to Africa during a famine, then tried to move back, but were held as slaves. > > Don’t quote stuff you don’t understand. I assume you know what they looked like moving into Egypt and how they looked moving out. How many generations they stayed anyway. Actually I do not believe the bible as Voltaire has already debunked it as a work of fiction and plagiarism. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/316 "2010-01-02T18:42:52Z")
You have posted a lot of opinions, but precious little fact. I do not accept your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![annelions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@annelions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annelions)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/317 "2010-01-02T18:47:52Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > I assume you know what they looked like moving into Egypt and how they looked moving out. How many generations they stayed anyway. > > Actually I do not believe the bible as Voltaire has already debunked it as a work of fiction and plagiarism. Then don’t quote it as a citation, if you don’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/318 "2010-01-02T18:49:47Z")
> [@annelions](#): > > Under what conditions was the body viewed in? How was it stored? Do you realize that there are decay and/or mummification processes which turn skin black? There is more than one tale from the US southwest of an indisputably Caucasian miner getting lost and, when found later, their dead body has been reported to be “black as ash”. > > Plus, there are “bog bodies”, which have all been turned leathery-black/brown over time. > > Different circumstances, maybe, but it just goes to show that you don’t have to be Negro to have black skin AFTER DEATH. Try to view all my arguments in conjuction with each other. Louis XIV cousin Charles II Stuart was named the black Boy, a tall black man and the swarthy stuart. I allways hope someone with real expertise will answer questions. Do black and white look the same in death? always, under all circumstances? Find in google louis XIV and l’encre (ink), parts of the book are shown in google. By the way, don’t you get disgusted with constantly finding some convulated excuse about any argument a black oriented persons brings in? Do you ask yourself why you respond like this. Whats wrong with blacks as always seem to be wrong? Even regarding their own history? as are Arabs, always wrong, always the need to be bombed like some fermin. Only whites know best. You are speaking to a real person not some beast who worries about things going on in Europe today as if we are heading towards a new holocaust. And blacks and arabs are always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/319 "2010-01-02T18:56:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If blackness is that discardable, then what significance does it have? Well think of Chines americans who came to the US many, many generations ago and still look and sound chinese. Imagine them having military power and science, and ruling america. This is what I’m describing with my research 1500-1789, explaining racism. Perhaps by taking the chinese as an example we can bypass the fear or loathing or hatred blacks inspire in many persons. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/320 "2010-01-02T18:59:11Z")
**Egmond Codfried** , please do not insinuate other posters are racists because they disagree with your interpretation of history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=17)