# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/21 "2009-12-22T16:17:27Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Even IF Charles II _looked black_ (whatever that means), it doesn’t even come close to making the idea of the entire European royal class being black plausible. Well, I have collected about twentyfive personal description of kings and nobles, which describes them as black, coloured and etnic looking. Because of internmarriage this can be multiplied by parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents, children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. I consider this a good sample for my research purposes. The identity was blue blood, which was black blood. To determine whether a person was of noble descent the status of the greatgrandparents were also considerend. If a person had sixteen noble quarters, ancestors, he was a very high noble. The highest nobility looked upon themselves as the only true nobles. The ennobled classes, were called ‘new nobility.’ Yet when there was money and positions to consider the highest nobility might marry a low noble or even a commoner. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/22 "2009-12-22T16:17:30Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Somalis and Ethiopians arriving in the US are not treated as fellow whites. I thought we were talking about European nobility c. 1500-1789, > [@](#): > > We have to re-ajust our thinking of what a European princess (1500-1789) used to look like because of my reserch: blue blood is black blood (1500-1789) Why is that? You haven’t really produced much research - just some portraits. > [@](#): > > Now do we consider Obama white because there are some four or five images of a white Obama? No, because we look at descriptions which tell us he is black. Then wouldn’t we need some descriptions - hell, a **lot** of descriptions - of people saying “Charles Stuart doth surely seem to bespeak one of the sons of Ham, by my codpiece!” or “by Gadfrey, Charles, thy mother be so black when she doth attend night school, the master doth mark her absent, in sooth” or likewise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/23 "2009-12-22T16:18:22Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Now do we consider Obama white because there are some four or five images of a white Obama? No, because we look at descriptions which tell us he is black. No, it’s because we can see what he looks like. If you want your argument to go anywhere, you have to show that “black” meant the same thing to Europeans in 1500 that it means to us today. You’re asking us to take that for granted, which would be a huge leap of faith. Why does “black,” as applied to Charles, refer to African ancestry rather than a dark (by white standards) complexion? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/24 "2009-12-22T16:21:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I prefer the more plausible route of deconstructing racism as a vestigial response to the fear of being attacked by saber-tooth tigers. Both fears are plausible, because humans were attacked by tigers. And whites in Europe were ruled and oppressed by blacks. The question is: do we still need racism after all this time, is there still a need to keep blacks down, to fill our prisons with young black men, because of events so many years ago. Important here is that people who will benefit from change will be more prepared to consider my theories. People who benefit from the status quo will reject every point I make and even ridicule my views. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/25 "2009-12-22T16:24:04Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > O yes they did. But what you mean with ‘people’? White people? > I never questioned my father or my family being blacks. We were just blacks. Actually going to Holland made me very aware of my blackness and if I belonged. > The whites who grew up with a black elite did not question this. Maybe. But I’d think someone would have said something about all their kings being several shades darker than everyone else in the throne room. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/26 "2009-12-22T16:26:52Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Do you agree that Charles II Stuart looks black? Of course, not. He does not even look like someone from the sections of Africa settled by Phoenicians or Romans. He looks very much like a Northern European. > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Blacks and coloureds come in many shapes and forms, and not everyone has classical african features, not everyone has frizzy hair, thick lips, broad noses or subnasal prognasty. Yet they are not considered whites, they are blacks. Somalis and Ethiopians arriving in the US are not treated as fellow whites. They are looked upon as blacks, no matter how straight their hair or narrow their noses might be. So, what you are saying is that he doesn’t really look “black” because blacks and whites all have such widely divergent characteristics that there is no actual way to distinguish them–except when you make a declaration that someone looks the way you need to to look for your thesis. Sorry. I am unpersuaded and unimpressed with your assertions. (I am not even really sure what you are setting out to prove, but I am pretty sure you have failed.) ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/27 "2009-12-22T16:28:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought we were talking about European nobility c. 1500-1789,Why is that? I anticipated strange science about East Africans being whites, Black Caucasians or something. Some have found what I’m talking about and said these kings were ‘black Caucasians.’ So they were whites, but with black skin. I consider this B.S. > [@](#): > > You haven’t really produced much research - just some portraits. Then wouldn’t we need some descriptions - hell, a **lot** of descriptions - of people saying “Charles Stuart doth surely seem to bespeak one of the sons of Ham, by my codpiece!” or “by Gadfrey, Charles, thy mother be so black when she doth attend night school, the master doth mark her absent, in sooth” or likewise. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m just getting started. Please read google if you are in a hurry. I have (self)published two books on these matters with sources etc. Charles II Stuart was named The Black Boy, described as a tall black man and The swarty Stuart. Next we have three portraits of a black man. The wigged one is the blackest and the most afrocentric in my view. Is this still too vague for you? ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/28 "2009-12-22T16:31:21Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Charles-Stuart-II-the-black-boy.jpg](http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Charles-Stuart-II-the-black-boy.jpg) > > [Charles II Stuart, named THe Black Boy] In color. > **[File:Charles II of England Stuart by John Riley.JPG](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_II_of_England_Stuart_by_John_Riley.JPG)** A few more pics are here. > **[Charles II of England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_England)** > > Charles II (29 May 1630 – 6 February 1685)\[c\] was King of Scotland from 1649 until 1651 and King of England, Scotland, and Ireland from the 1660 Restoration of the monarchy until his death in 1685. > Charles II was the eldest surviving child of Charles I of England, Scotland and Ireland and Henrietta Maria of France. After Charles I's execution at Whitehall on 30 January 1649, at the climax of the English Civil War, the Parliament of Scotland proclaimed Charles II king on 5 February 1649. Howe... ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/29 "2009-12-22T16:31:27Z")
Saw the thread title, and bet myself that the OP would have a join date of Dec '09. Self wins! ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/30 "2009-12-22T16:32:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe. But I’d think someone would have said something about all their kings being several shades darker than everyone else in the throne room. The kings and their nobles were black and coloured, members of a fixed mulatto race which identified as blue blood. Kingship started with this nation of original Europeans. White Europeans came only 6000 years ago from Central asia to Europe. The nobility looked down on whites, much like racist whites today look down on blacks, not even considering then humans. Whites and Enlightened blacks ended this strange oppression with a great shout called The French Revoltution. Calls for equality were whites asking for equality. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/31 "2009-12-22T16:34:44Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > In color. > > [File:Charles II of England Stuart by John Riley.JPG - Wikimedia Commons](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_II_of_England_Stuart_by_John_Riley.JPG) > > A few more pics are here. > > [Charles II of England - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_England) > **[white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)** Please consider images of a white Barack Obama. Does these make him a white man? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/32 "2009-12-22T16:36:11Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Important here is that people who will benefit from change will be more prepared to consider my theories. This is the big problem with Afrocentrist. Afrocentrism is more about making modern people feel better about themselves than it is about good scholarly work. You have not produced any convincing evidence in this thread that would lead anyone here to believe that Charles II was what we would describe as being black today. If you’re going to make extraordinary claims you’re going to need better evidence than you’ve presented so far. I am curious to know what exactly your sources are for these claims. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/33 "2009-12-22T16:36:32Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Both fears are plausible, because humans were attacked by tigers. And whites in Europe were ruled and oppressed by blacks. I don’t think that saber-tooth tigers were a major problem in Europe for the last few thousand years. Unless you mean that Richard the Lion-hearted was part feline on his mother’s side. And you haven’t really demonstrated anything - just posted a couple of portraits and asserted that it proved there was an African in the woodpile of the European nobility. You have to do a lot better than that. How about tracing Charles Stuart’s family tree back far enough to find how he turned up black? > [@](#): > > The question is: do we still need racism after all this time, is there still a need to keep blacks down, to fill our prisons with young black men, because of events so many years ago. This has nothing to do with the assertion of the OP, obviously. > [@](#): > > Important here is that people who will benefit from change will be more prepared to consider my theories. > > People who benefit from the status quo will reject every point I make and even ridicule my views. In order to make them worth consideration, they need to be fleshed out a little. So far, they fall a little short - like from here to Nairobi short. As to the last, one need only quote our dear departed friend Carl Sagan - > [@](#): > > They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at Galileo. Of course, they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/34 "2009-12-22T16:36:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Saw the thread title, and bet myself that the OP would have a join date of Dec '09. Self wins! I’m not American and not familiar with this shorthand. I’m sorry. What are you saying? Do not answer if it will take us outside the topic, please. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/35 "2009-12-22T16:38:10Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > I’m just getting started. Please read google if you are in a hurry. I have (self)published two books on these matters with sources etc. He doesn’t look black in any of these paintings. Please provide a citation showing that “black” in 1500 referred only to African ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/36 "2009-12-22T16:40:52Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > And whites in Europe were ruled and oppressed by blacks. Piffle. First, the claim is absurd, based not on a rejection of some grand conspiracy but simply on the fact that Europeans had so many different rulers from such widely different origins over so many years, that even if (as has not really happened), some group of people described as “black” happened to gain power in some part of Europe for some period of time, (despite no one actually recognizing it until now), they were hardly the dominant rulers throughout all of Europe for any length of time. Beyond that, of course, is the fact that the “black” rulers–at last those you have thus far identified–were hardly any more despotic than any other European rulers. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/37 "2009-12-22T16:41:00Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > This is the big problem with Afrocentrist. Afrocentrism is more about making modern people feel better about themselves than it is about good scholarly work. You have not produced any convincing evidence in this thread that would lead anyone here to believe that Charles II was what we would describe as being black today. > > If you’re going to make extraordinary claims you’re going to need better evidence than you’ve presented so far. I am curious to know what exactly your sources are for these claims. What would you consider proof? DNA is out of the question. My theory is built on many pillars. Like: Personal descriptions black images black described yet shown as whites. why? many, many Moores in western art, which we still have to discuss. archeological proof of The Grimaldi Man, there were blacks in Europe. Garamante: their descendents were called Black Dutch arriving in the 17th century in the US Most eurocentric studies were written by ideological racists ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/38 "2009-12-22T16:42:20Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Important here is that people who will benefit from change will be more prepared to consider my theories. > > People who benefit from the status quo will reject every point I make and even ridicule my views. That’s some first-rate well poison you got there… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/39 "2009-12-22T16:43:15Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The kings and their nobles were black and coloured, members of a fixed mulatto race which identified as blue blood. Kingship started with this nation of original Europeans. White Europeans came only 6000 years ago from Central asia to Europe. The nobility looked down on whites, much like racist whites today look down on blacks, not even considering then humans. > Whites and Enlightened blacks ended this strange oppression with a great shout called The French Revoltution. Calls for equality were whites asking for equality. Yeah. Doesn’t answer my question. Incidentally - doesn’t Charles II being referred to as “the Swarthy Stuart” imply that the other Stuarts \*weren’t \*swarthy? Why note someone’s darkness if his whole family is black? > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) > > Please consider images of a white Barack Obama. > Does these make him a white man? So your saying that Charlie sat for his portrait for hours, maybe days, and when he saw that the painter had depicted him as a white man, instead hanging the guy and burning the painting, he had it hung in his gallery? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/40 "2009-12-22T16:45:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He doesn’t look black in any of these paintings. Please provide a citation showing that “black” in 1500 referred only to African ancestry. [http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/paintings/1660/kerouaille.jpg](http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/paintings/1660/kerouaille.jpg) [Louise de Kerouaille, french noble, mistress of Charles II Stuart: whitened, with a little Moorres, proof of her high noblity] Blue blood was symbolised by the Moor in paintings, jewellery, heraldism. The Moor was almost always a pitch black african, with subnasal prognatism, frizzy hair, thick lips and a flattened nose. The Moors we see in portraits with a whitened noble are not real persons, but symbols of the high birth of the noble. The nobles and royals were more or less classical african in looks and had black or brown skin. Nobility could be seen in the face. Thats why, up to the French revolution they started to paint themseves white. Why would people already white, paint themselves and wear blond wigs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=3)