# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Moulay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8edcca/32.png) [@Moulay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moulay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/381 "2010-01-05T18:23:43Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Did any of you picked up on the sources I have offered? Yes, I picked up your [Grimaldi man](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimaldi_Man)story, and found it to be a hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/382 "2010-01-05T19:09:13Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) > > Blacks can be made to look like whites as these images of a whitened Obama illustrate. You keep posting this as if it meant something. It doesn’t. Photoshop _can_ be used to make a black guy look white. The reason that we know that this has been done to the Obama pictures is that we have lots of other evidence that Obama is black. We don’t have **any** evidence that anyone you are claiming has had their portrait taken is black. Descriptions of people as “black” during the period you want to examine do not mean that they were African - it means they had black hair, and swarthy, but _white_, skin. Plus, as mentioned, the whole theory makes no sense. Why would the nobles give two toots on a tin trumpet whether the commoners knew they were black or not? They were the nobility - they had all the money and all the status, and lots of heavily armed folks to whack off the various limbs of those who got uppity. Tell you what - I think we can agree that during the period in question, calling someone a “Moor” means something closer to what “black” means today. Do you have some instances where people referred to several kings or dukes or something as “Moors” or “Moorish”? Not swarthy or black-haired - a “Moor”. Got anything like that? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Danika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Danika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danika)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/383 "2010-01-05T19:31:15Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The whole idea that ‘black’ only meant black hair is disproven by consequent descriptions which state: a tall black man, not a tall black haired man. The black boy, not the black haired boy. Egmond, please, I’ve in a friendly way tried to explain to you that in Europe it has been common to call black _haired_ people for black. The same way people with red hair are often called red. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/384 "2010-01-05T19:32:40Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Did any of you picked up on the sources I have offered? > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > This man [Charles II] is described as a tall black man in all the biographies about him. Before you repeat ‘tall black man’ yet again, let me remind you of the point I picked up on all the way back in Post #198. Just because lots of biographies continue to use that phrase doesn’t stop it being a misquotation. Unless, of course, you can supply a cite to that exact phrase being used about him in a seventeenth-century book or document. Or can’t you be bothered to check out your own sources? (I would actually be very interested to know who did first use that supposed quote. But something tells me you won’t be able to answer that.) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/385 "2010-01-05T19:34:16Z")
[Ludovico Sforza,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_Sforza) of Milan, Italy (1452-1508) was called “il Moro” or “The Moor.” > [@](#): > > It is said that he was called il Moro because of his dark skinned complexion. Some scholars believe that the name Moro came from Ludovico’s coat of arms, which contained the mulberry tree, but that is doubtful, as the Italian name for that tree is the feminine mora rather than the masculine moro. In Italian “moro”, just like “bruno”, is the masculine equivalent of “brunette” (“mora” in Italian). So the epithet most likely refers either to Ludovico’s jet black hair or perhaps his swarthy complexion (suggesting he resembled a Moor). [Here](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/LudovicoSforza_dePredis.jpg) is his portrait. Not remotely a black man, not in a billion years. He had dark hair, yes - but so does Marilyn Manson. You can tell from his facial features he was obviously _not black_ and “the Moor” was just a nickname. And even if Ludovico Sforza was 100% Nubian with black skin like obsidian and hair as kinky as a Brillo pad, it still wouldn’t make the nobility of Europe black. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/386 "2010-01-05T19:47:33Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > End this most ridiculous of threads. > > I can’t believe the OP is actually serious. This is a spoof wind-up thread. No one is forcing you to read it. As it happens, a lot of interesting information is being posted to demonstrate just how ludicrous the fact-free OP actually is, so in the interest of promoting the Straight Dope on this topic, this thread will remain open for the forseeable future. As to whether this is a spoof, I will point out that the SDMB has been challenged by True Believers, in the past, with claims that the moon landings were a hoax, that circumcision was a Jewish plot to emasculate mankind, that the WTC/Pentagon attacks were carried out by the U.S. (or Israel?) using controlled demolitions, and that Saddam Hussein was a serious threat to the U.S. Lots of people believe lots of different things. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/387 "2010-01-05T19:53:59Z")
**Egmond** , as someone asked – what about the phrase “Tall, Dark and Handsome”? It usually means someone with _dark hair and eyes_. > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Great find, **Guinastasia**. > > This is one of the most entertaining threads in ages. Parts of it are even educational. Oh yes, definitely. This one will definitely go down in Dope history. (Although I am pretty disappointed that the Vikings did NOT come from the land of the ice and snow with the midnight sun where the hot springs blow. Dammit, Robert Plant lied to me!) ---
**Author:** ![Danika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Danika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danika)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/388 "2010-01-05T20:22:39Z")
Egmond Codfried, I’m open to new ideas and I’ve been reading your theories. Bud sadly, the only thing I see are speculations, not any evidences. You claim that EVERY royal and EVERY noble person in the years 1500-1789 in Europe were of a black race. This means we’re talking about hundreds of thousends of people. Yet they left - according to you - in 1789 without leaving any traces in paintings. Yes, I know you claim that the paintings in the museums have been whitened and faked afterwards (by persons who must have had an awful lot of time on their hands) but there are also many paintings in private possessions in private homes in Europe. And they also depict their ancesters as white people. And again, I can’t understand how they all could have been gone in the 19th century when photos started to be taken. Because the same royals as were in power in 1789 continued as royals in the 19th century, continued marring their first cousins and other relatives, how could all their grandchildren become white??? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/389 "2010-01-05T20:23:06Z")
I want **Egmond** to tell me why [John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford](http://www.skiptoncastle.co.uk/uploads/gallery/9th-Lord.jpg) was called “Black Face Clifford.” Why? Tell me why. I want you, **Egmond,** to tell me why. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/390 "2010-01-05T20:34:10Z")
> [@Danika](#): > > You claim that EVERY royal and EVERY noble person in the years 1500-1789 in Europe were of a black race. This means we’re talking about hundreds of thousends of people. Yet they left - according to you - in 1789 without leaving any traces in paintings. Yes, I know you claim that the paintings in the museums have been whitened and faked afterwards (by persons who must have had an awful lot of time on their hands) but there are also many paintings in private possessions in private homes in Europe. And they also depict their ancesters as white people. > > And again, I can’t understand how they all could have been gone in the 19th century when photos started to be taken. Because the same royals as were in power in 1789 continued as royals in the 19th century, continued marring their first cousins and other relatives, how could all their grandchildren become white??? I’m sure we could invent an explanation for this–we’re a talented, if sometimes off-kilter, bunch. What I have been waiting to discover, for lo these many days, has been how the original black leaders of 1500 suddenly arose from somewhere without having been seen, and enslaved all those white folks. Where were the black people hiding between the White entry into Europe 6,000 years ago and the black ascension five hundred years ago? (Of course, since every history of language notes that “blue blood” indicates extremely white skin, I am curious how the OP has ignored that information to reverse it, completely, with his claim that “blue blood” meant “black skin.” I am not holding my breath.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/391 "2010-01-05T20:45:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Ludovico Sforza,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_Sforza) of Milan, Italy (1452-1508) was called “il Moro” or “The Moor.” > > [Here](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/LudovicoSforza_dePredis.jpg) is his portrait. Not remotely a black man, not in a billion years. He had dark hair, yes - but so does Marilyn Manson. You can tell from his facial features he was obviously _not black_ and “the Moor” was just a nickname. And even if Ludovico Sforza was 100% Nubian with black skin like obsidian and hair as kinky as a Brillo pad, it still wouldn’t make the nobility of Europe black. Now we are getting somewhere. However, “the Moor” sounds like an Anglicization of “Moro”. So I have to agree with you - this is not evidence in favor of our friend’s pet theory. Not that I expect him to recognize that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/392 "2010-01-06T04:51:17Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Was not Hannibals wive Greek? My comment was meant as a jest. You had provided the comment: [QUOTE=Egmond Codfried] ;You know about Alexander Pushkins greatgranddaughter who maried a grandchild of Victoria? She is described as having negro hair and lesbian tendencies too. [/QUOTE] I thought the comment about her lesbian tendencies was irrelevant to the issue at hand. Further, the term [lesbian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian) comes from the greek island of [Lesbos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbos), home to the poet [Sappho](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho). Not that long ago, the current inhabitants of Lesbos [kicked up a minor fuss about the use of the term](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3291636), pointing out that all the men and all of the women on the island were Lesbians, and that gay women should not use the term. My comment was a riff on this, asking if Pushkin’s granddaughter were greek, that is, from Lesbos. This being a thread about ethnic origin, I figured big yuks would ensue. :rolleyes: Again, I neglected the fact that English is not your native tongue, and that you are monomaniacal. My apologies for wasting your time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/393 "2010-01-06T05:14:17Z")
And considering that Queen Victoria was the last of the Hanover line, and which descends from the Stuarts, and since you can’t throw a bone in European royalty without hitting one of HER descendents, they can’t have gone away, either. (Didn’t the Hohenzollerns of Prussia also have some Stuart blood?) ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/394 "2010-01-06T08:07:25Z")
A line from Stephen Pile appropriately describes the OP, his historical skills and his theory: “So giftedly bad he backs unwittingly into genius”. An epitaph for this thread, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/395 "2010-01-06T08:12:47Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Apparently And then there’s [“Bluidy Dam”](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2631/4037456801_b37fd57002_o.jpg) Dalyell, the “Muscovite De’il.” Also known as the Quaker Oats Man’s extremely evil twin brother. No connection to this thread really, but I just love that painting. In the background it seems to portray the infamous Burning of the Sydney Opera House. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/396 "2010-01-06T08:58:46Z")
And now, to round off the thread’s surreality, we have a visit from Mr. Subliminal . . . ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/397 "2010-01-06T10:11:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And considering that Queen Victoria was the last of the Hanover line, and which descends from the Stuarts, and since you can’t throw a bone in European royalty without hitting one of HER descendents, they can’t have gone away, either. (Didn’t the Hohenzollerns of Prussia also have some Stuart blood?) Which can only mean one thing, and one thing only. The \*real \*Elizabeth II is black, and the tiny old lady with the funny hats is an impostor. And the same goes for [del]Dumbo[/del]Prince Charles ! It’s all make believe to hide how nubian noblemen master us puppets from behind the scenes ! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/398 "2010-01-06T11:44:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which can only mean one thing, and one thing only. > The \*real \*Elizabeth II is black, and the tiny old lady with the funny hats is an impostor. And the same goes for [del]Dumbo[/del]Prince Charles ! It’s all make believe to hide how nubian noblemen master us puppets from behind the scenes ! And if the _other_ [rumors](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilians) about the queen are true . . . that means black blue blooded nobles are actually . . . :eek: I’m afraid to to complete my own train of thought . . . ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/399 "2010-01-06T11:44:52Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > And now, to round off the thread’s surreality, we have a visit from Mr. Subliminal . . . A spammer posted in this thread and a bunch of others during the night. I don’t know why he chose this thread. He was posting about hookers. ---
**Author:** ![Danika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Danika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danika)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/400 "2010-01-06T12:49:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And considering that Queen Victoria was the last of the Hanover line, and which descends from the Stuarts, and since you can’t throw a bone in European royalty without hitting one of HER descendents, they can’t have gone away, either. (Didn’t the Hohenzollerns of Prussia also have some Stuart blood?) Yes, the Hohenzollerns had Stuart blood. Frederick the greats grandfathers (George I of England) grandmother was Elizabeth Stuart whose father was James I of England. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=21)