# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Danika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Danika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danika)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/401 "2010-01-06T13:05:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which can only mean one thing, and one thing only. > The \*real \*Elizabeth II is black, and the tiny old lady with the funny hats is an impostor. And the same goes for [del]Dumbo[/del]Prince Charles ! It’s all make believe to hide how nubian noblemen master us puppets from behind the scenes ! Prince Charles’ wife Camilla is also then black because she’s descended from one of Charles II:s (the one who Egmond Codfried always calls “the Black Boy”) illegitimate sons. And Charles’ first wife, princess Diana, had even two of Charles II:s sons among her ancesters. ---
**Author:** ![Danika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Danika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danika)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/402 "2010-01-06T13:24:33Z")
> [@Danika](#): > > Prince Charles’ wife Camilla is also then black because she’s descended from one of Charles II:s (the one who Egmond Codfried always calls “the Black Boy”) illegitimate sons. And Charles’ first wife, princess Diana, had even two of Charles II:s sons among her ancesters. Well, sorry, I read now in Wikipedia that lady Di had actually FOUR of Charles II:s sons as ancestors and she was also a descendant of Charles II:s brother James II through his illegitimate daughter. So she must really have been “the black girl” according to Egmond Codfried. > **[Diana, Princess of Wales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales)** > > Diana, Princess of Wales (born Diana Frances Spencer; 1 July 1961 – 31 August 1997) was a member of the British royal family. She was the first wife of Charles III (then Prince of Wales) and mother of Princes William and Harry. Her activism and glamour made her an international icon and earned her enduring popularity. > Diana was born into the British nobility and grew up close to the royal family, living at Park House on their Sandringham estate. In 1981, while working as a nursery teacher's... ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/403 "2010-01-06T13:47:55Z")
OK, so the following is a complete list of QE2’s great-great-great-grandparents, all of whom were alive prior to 1789 (from Wikipedia): Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha Princess Louise of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, Dowager Princess of Leiningen Friedrich Wilhelm, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg Landgravine Louise Caroline of Hesse-Kassel (or Hesse-Cassel) Landgrave William of Hesse-Kassel (or Hesse-Cassel) Princess Louise Charlotte of Denmark Duke Louis of Württemberg Princess Henriette of Nassau-Weilberg Count Ladislaus Rhédey von Kis-Rhéde Baroness Agnes Inczedy de Nagy-Várad George III of the United Kingdom Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz Landgrave Frederick of Hesse-Kassel (or Hesse-Cassel) Princess Caroline of Nassau-Usingen Thomas Lyon-Bowes, 11th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne Mary Carpenter Joseph Grimstead Charlotte Walsh George Smith Frances Mosley Reverend Robert Hodgson Mary Tucker William Cavendish-Bentinck, 3rd Duke of Portland Lady Dorothy Cavendish Richard Wellesley, 1st Marquess Wellesley Hyacinth Roland Edwin Andrew Burnaby Mary Browne Thomas Salisbury Frances Webb A cursory examination reveals that out of the 32 ancestors, 18 had titles before or after their names, which made them European royalty or nobility. As for the remaining 14, I cannot ascertain much more beyond the fact that some of them may have been commoners, while others may simply have been younger (and thus untitled) members of noble families. Therefore, according to the OP’s logic, Queen Elizabeth II of Britain is at least 9/16 black, perhaps more. She doesn’t look it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/404 "2010-01-06T13:54:59Z")
Sorry, I miscounted: it’s 20 titled ancestors vs. 12 untitled. That makes her 5/8 black. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/405 "2010-01-06T15:26:42Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > One wonders what the OP makes of “black Irish.” Did you google egmond codfried black Irish? A 19th century cartoonist found Irish to resemble negroes. I have posted sources in this thread which discusses blacks in Europe (500-1500). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/406 "2010-01-06T15:32:11Z")
Try to keep up, Egmond. Your “sources” are garbage. And the cartoonist you mention was drawing a political cartoon for Punch. Go Google some modern political cartoons, why don’t you? Or read Doonesbury. Bill Clinton was portrayed by a waffle. Does that mean he was, in actuality, a piece of breakfast pastry? Of course not. The cartoonist you are trying to “cite” was comparing the Irish to the “savages” of Darkest Africa, making reference to their perceived violent natures and unwillingness to become “civilized.” ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/407 "2010-01-06T15:32:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I like how the aristocracy commissioned religious art to depict Mary and Jesus to look black, because, being black themselves, they had no use for a “white Jesus.” And yet…they themselves were trying to pass as white, so they doctored their own portraits. Da’hell? You know when you have US presidential elections and candidates dress down and participate in activities of the ‘common’ man to show that they are not elitist? This is how you should view the white make-up. I think that the majority was white and had to be cajoled in some way. So the white face was propogandistic because they did not dream of marrying a white person. Then because of its bleaching properties, I believe this make up was for black and coloured nobles, because I cannot imagine a white person in need of skin bleach. Or blond wigs. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/408 "2010-01-06T15:37:26Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Apparently [John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford](http://www.skiptoncastle.co.uk/uploads/gallery/9th-Lord.jpg) was called “black-faced Clifford.” You can look at that portrait and judge for yourself whether this nickname was warranted. This looks like a authentic over paint. Underneath is a black face. > [@](#): > > On the other hand there’s [this](http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/579e4ff7fb3d582f_large) engraving of General George Monck, which confused me enough that I actually started a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=532220&highlight=monck) on it. It turns out that the engraving, as **Moulay** said, was simply much darker than the original painting it was based on. Monck was very black looking, as did his wife. As did Charles II Stuart. The white portraits are revisionist. And then there’s [“Bluidy Dam”](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2631/4037456801_b37fd57002_o.jpg) Dalyell, the “Muscovite De’il.” Also known as the Quaker Oats Man’s extremely evil twin brother. No connection to this thread really, but I just love that painting. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/409 "2010-01-06T15:38:46Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > I think that the majority was white and had to be cajoled in some way. Why? Renaissance-to-Early-Modern Europe had no democracies. The “people” didn’t need to approve of the ruler. The entire worldview was that the rulers were God-approved and the people had no say. Why would the ruling class have to cajole the people in that society, other than not making their lives so burdensome that they would revolt purely in order to survive? You do realize that there was more difference between the ruling class in that time and the peasants of that time than there is between the ruling classes of today and the “common people” of today, right? The wealth gap was probably smaller just because there wasn’t as much absolute wealth then as there is now, but the perceived “breeding” or “social class” gap was HUGE. There was much more probability of a peasant revolt over horrible working and living conditions than there was of one over perceived racial difference. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/410 "2010-01-06T15:52:08Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > It must indeed be an intoxicating thought to think that, alone of all the people in the world who have looked at, thought about or researched the aristocracy of Europe, the OP has noticed something devastatingly profound and important. Such as that they were all black. It is this sense of exultation and deadly seriousness that makes this all so delicious. Such adulation! Try to contain yourself. My research is based on others who came before me. Even in the early 19th century there were folks who protested the use of white, revisionist portraits of Johan VI, count of Nassau, although not clearly stated. I owe a lot to Frank Snowden and J.A. Rogers. I have started to look closely at Dutch portraits which do not match the personal description. Then I have given a definition of whom and what black is, mainly the identity, next the looks. Because of the funny stuff with hiding of portraits and over paints I would prefer to bypass them completely. They confuse the matter at hand. This is the start of racism. Then I have found that the Moors in western art and heraldry are just symbols of blue blood. There were African servants and musicians, but these are not on those portraits. Blue blood I have connected to blue men as how black Europeans were called. So how about you? What did you contribute and why do you hide behind a fake name? Should we not get the chance to throw flowers at your feet and bask in you sagacity? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/411 "2010-01-06T16:01:39Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > This looks like a authentic over paint. Underneath is a black face. I have no idea where you’re seeing this. I know you’re getting a lot of responses, but in addition to having ignored mine about the meaning of “black,” **APB** found that Charles II was _NOT_ described as a “tall black man.” > [@APB](#): > > Take the claim that he was described as a ‘tall black man’. Well, you can indeed find dozens of online references to this claim, some from seemingly reputable printed sources. These are usually combined with the claim that it came from the wanted poster for him issued in 1651. But others instead give the quote as ‘a tall man, above two yards high’. Actually the original quote comes from a letter sent by the Parliamentarian Council of State to customs officials. The printed calendared version gives the full quote. […] > > The Boswell quote is even sillier. When Boswell wrote about ‘the swarthy Stuart’ being given ‘[t]he cream complexion of Hanover’, he was satirising a decision to paint white [the lead statue of Charles II](http://www.worldisround.com/articles/26441/photo15.html) in Parliament Square in Edinburgh. **Argent Towers** also pointed out that one of your co-writers incorrectly believes that the name “Stuart” MEANS dark or swarthy. You have not responded to any of these points. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/412 "2010-01-06T16:03:18Z")
> [@Danika](#): > > Prince Charles’ wife Camilla is also then black because she’s descended from one of Charles II:s (the one who Egmond Codfried always calls “the Black Boy”) illegitimate sons. And Charles’ first wife, princess Diana, had even two of Charles II:s sons among her ancesters. It was I think American scientists who came up with the one-drop-rule. Anyone who had 1/64 part black blood was black, should remove himself to a ghetto and woe him if he should marry a proper white woman. Camilla Parker Bowles is a descendant of the Van der Duyn family, who was described by Isabelle the Charriere as famous for being black. Her grandfather was Aarnout Joost Keppel of Albemarle, a lover of King William III, and was married to a sister of baron Aarnout Joost van der Duyn who was described by James Boswell as ‘chimney sweeper.’ De Charriere wrote a poem about the barons brown black colour. Source: There are no letters like yours, translated letters by baroness Isabelle the Charriere, Belle van Zuylen (1739-1805) to her lover Constant D’Hermenches de Rebeque. Isabelle de Charriere, by Courtney (1996) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/413 "2010-01-06T16:04:27Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > So how about you? What did you contribute and why do you hide behind a fake name? Should we not get the chance to throw flowers at your feet and bask in you sagacity? Again, I remind you to keep the personal remarks and potshots out of this. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/414 "2010-01-06T16:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > It was I think American scientists who came up with the one-drop-rule. _There’s_ a hearteningly vague statement. Care to back it up? I’ve always thought that it was racially biased Society that came up with the absurd exclusionary rules. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/415 "2010-01-06T16:10:00Z")
> [@annelions](#): > > I don’t recall saying anything about thinking blacks as being ‘always’ wrong. No, you did not, but this is my experience which I gave you to ponder. > [@](#): > > It does, however, appear that they quote a real book with “Quelques-uns de ces corps étaient bien conservés, surtout celui de Louis XIII; mais la peau de celui de Louis XIV était noire comme de l’encre.” There is no further detail than this. It was 70+ years after Louis XIII’s death. People can turn black after death, especially, IIRC, in the presence of lead. There is no indication here that this was his pre-death appearance. That’s the source. It could point to many things, among them that he was indeed black of skin in real life like his cousin Charles II Stuart. The mummy of Tutanchamon is black because he was black of skin too. Charles V Habsburg’s mummy was also described as black with massive prognatism. There are two catalogues about two exhibitions in Belgium which show a grainy black and white photo of the mummy, taken around 1860, and a drawing of the black mummy. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/416 "2010-01-06T16:17:29Z")
> [@APB](#): > > No one said anything at all about that particular engraving being based on an original painting and, in fact, it probably wasn’t. Loggan is actually a counterexample to the idea that engravers did not have access to their sitters. Some of his preparatory plumbago drawings from life for other prints survive. > > Also, you’ve overlooked the other point I made during the previous discussion. A major reason why the Monck engraving looks so dark is because of the poor state of the plate when that impression was taken. Other, sharper versions survive. This is important, because this is equally true of several of **Codfried** ’s examples. The elementary - but easily overlooked - point is that prints were not all the same. Tones could vary considerably. It’s therefore always a bit pointless making judgments about shading based on single inferior impressions. Remember dear, Egmond Codfried bases his research on personal descriptions of blackness in the European nobility, royalty and elite. I notice that folks have a hard time hearing this. What’s the matter with you people? While enjoying myself on this site I remembered that the same persons appear with many different portraits, which do not match. This, I concluded, had to do with every artist giving his own interpretation of the whitened subject. Now look at the six or so ‘white Obama’s’ and notice how they all differ. Now you transfer this knowledge to the historical portraits we are discussing. > **[white obama - Google Zoeken](https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white+obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi&tbm=isch)** [white Obama] ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/417 "2010-01-06T16:19:10Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Charles V Habsburg’s mummy was also described as black with massive prognatism. Mummified bodies will turn black in the right conditions, even if they were lily-white in life. Were all the Iron Age Celts who died in bogs and were mummified by the peat black in life? And the Hapsburg Jaw was a Hapsburg trait, not a black one. The look was massively exacerbated by the inbreeding that characterized the Hapsburgs’ generational political weddery (don’t bother looking that up…I think I just coined it). They wanted to make sure all the family wealth and political power stayed in the family, so they married family. A lot. This does strange things to the genetics. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/418 "2010-01-06T16:24:40Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > _There’s_ a hearteningly vague statement. Care to back it up? I’ve always thought that it was racially biased Society that came up with the absurd exclusionary rules. > **[Google Search](https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=one+drop+rule&meta=&aq=f&oq=)** [one drop rule] There is something called scientific racism, and that’s what I’m aiming at. They went on to measure black people’s skulls, arms, boobs, backsides and dicks! There was even a wooden contraption so they could measure the whole black body in one sweep. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/419 "2010-01-06T16:31:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Mummified bodies will turn black in the right conditions, even if they were lily-white in life. Were all the Iron Age Celts who died in bogs and were mummified by the peat black in life? > > And the Hapsburg Jaw was a Hapsburg trait, not a black one. The look was massively exacerbated by the inbreeding that characterized the Hapsburgs’ generational political weddery (don’t bother looking that up…I think I just coined it). They wanted to make sure all the family wealth and political power stayed in the family, so they married family. A lot. This does strange things to the genetics. > **[Google Search](https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=leopold+Ii+habsburg&meta=&aq=f&oq=)** [http://www.tuerkenbeute.de/media/il9\_illuWindowGross/G1-1LeopI\_00\_il9\_503x690.jpg](http://www.tuerkenbeute.de/media/il9_illuWindowGross/G1-1LeopI_00_il9_503x690.jpg) [Leopold II Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor, described as a short, hale black man.] [http://www.buro1896.nl/domdigitaal/educatief/filipsII.jpg](http://www.buro1896.nl/domdigitaal/educatief/filipsII.jpg) [Fillips II Habsburg, son of Charles II Habsburg: here is a regular black man, whitened, for you] Because of the many leads about blackness I prefer to see the Habsburg family as black which explains the prognatism more easily, then all this nonsense about inbreeding. There are paintings on the ceiling of some Kift Kirke which show Leopold II Habsburg and his family as ordinary black folks, as you can find in any American ghetto. The Euro centrist/revisionist claim there is some pernicious form of prognatism, next to normal prognatism. It’s really all b.s, dear! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/420 "2010-01-06T16:33:54Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Remember dear, Egmond Codfried bases his research on personal descriptions of blackness in the European nobility, royalty and elite. I notice that folks have a hard time hearing this. What’s the matter with you people? > > While enjoying myself on this site I remembered that the same persons appear with many different portraits, which do not match. This, I concluded, had to do with every artist giving his own interpretation of the whitened subject. Now look at the six or so ‘white Obama’s’ and notice how they all differ. Now you transfer this knowledge to the historical portraits we are discussing. > > [white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) > > [white Obama] Doesn’t it bother you that you have no evidence for your strange ideas? I mean you’re pretending that you do, but in case of fact, you’re simply advocating a meandering daydream you had once. Perhaps you’re very bad at reading faces. I mean, not everyone has the same level of ability to see racial markers. Didn’t you find the black supremacist video posted above to be filled with utter, uneducated morons? Doesn’t it make you question your conclusions when the only people that agree with you are visibly insane, stupid or blindly dogmatic? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=22)