# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/421 "2010-01-06T16:34:54Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Because of the many leads about blackness **I prefer to see** the Habsburg family as black Are you aware of just how much the bolded portion underlies and informs your “theories” on this subject? Also, how much the bolded portion casts the deepest shadow of suspicion possible on your “theories”? This is not science, not even a very soft one like History. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/422 "2010-01-06T16:35:15Z")
**Egmond Codfried** , it’s polite to tell people what you are linking to. Links to the results of Google searches are not particularly helpful and don’t do anything for your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/423 "2010-01-06T16:37:34Z")
[quote=“jayjay, post:417, topic:522194”] Mummified bodies will turn black in the right conditions, even if they were lily-white in life. Were all the Iron Age Celts who died in bogs and were mummified by the peat black in life? QUOTE] [http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&um=1&q=mummy&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&um=1&q=mummy&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20) Mummies galore! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/424 "2010-01-06T16:42:06Z")
[quote=“Egmond\_Codfried, post:423, topic:522194”] > [@jayjay](#): > > Mummified bodies will turn black in the right conditions, even if they were lily-white in life. Were all the Iron Age Celts who died in bogs and were mummified by the peat black in life? > QUOTE] > [mummy - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&um=1&q=mummy&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20) > > Mummies galore! Doesn’t it bother you that instead of intelligently discussing things you resort to childish links that don’t address the issue? Why would someone believe you? You present no intelligent arguments and your evidence is imaginary. Your thesis is utterly racist and your evidence is stuff that only you can see. Isn’t that a sign that you might be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/425 "2010-01-06T16:44:06Z")
[quote=“Egmond\_Codfried, post:423, topic:522194”] > [@jayjay](#): > > Mummified bodies will turn black in the right conditions, even if they were lily-white in life. Were all the Iron Age Celts who died in bogs and were mummified by the peat black in life? > QUOTE] > [mummy - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&um=1&q=mummy&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20) > > Mummies galore! Up until this post, I had thought you might possibly be serious, simply because of the amount of time you are burning off on this thread and the associated “research”. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/426 "2010-01-06T16:46:26Z")
> [@](#): > > [Google](http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&so...meta=&aq=f&oq=) > > [one drop rule] That’s just a search page of things about the “one drop rule”, not anything that backs up that “scientists” came up with it. I’m not going to do your search for you. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/427 "2010-01-06T16:46:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Are you aware of just how much the bolded portion underlies and informs your “theories” on this subject? Also, how much the bolded portion casts the deepest shadow of suspicion possible on your “theories”? This is not science, not even a very soft one like History. Well, dear, do you know how scientists study the same facts and arrive at two very different and opposite outcomes? The one says the earth is warming up, the others says it’s cooling down. How do you explain this? There are many little facts and arguments which I do not print here which lead me to certain ideas. I have mentioned 9/11 to you to show that the truth can be quite elusive, prone to government’s issuing threats and such, even killing dissenters. Many of you have not done any scientific research and are only familiar with books, the result of a research. My approach here is to stimulate folks to find their own truth with a little prodding by me. God forbids people will just believe me at my word. That’s how all this trouble started. People believing the fake portraits. I give you all tools to find out that these whitened portraits are fakes, not matching the description of the portrayed person. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/428 "2010-01-06T16:48:41Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > That’s just a search page of things about the “one drop rule”, not anything that backs up that “scientists” came up with it. I’m not going to do your search for you. You want to be spoon fed? You want fast food while it took me three years to arrive at my theory? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/429 "2010-01-06T16:50:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Egmond Codfried** , it’s polite to tell people what you are linking to. Links to the results of Google searches are not particularly helpful and don’t do anything for your arguments. It’s a new approach. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/430 "2010-01-06T16:52:56Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Well, dear, do you know how scientists study the same facts and arrive at two very different and opposite outcomes? The one says the earth is warming up, the others says it’s cooling down. > > How do you explain this? No real scientists think the world is cooling down. The vast majority of scientists think humanity is increasing the rate of heating. You’re simply ignorant about basic science facts. > [@](#): > > There are many little facts and arguments which I do not print here which lead me to certain ideas. I have mentioned 9/11 to you to show that the truth can be quite elusive, prone to government’s issuing threats and such, even killing dissenters. You appear to not understand how evidence works. You are suggesting a huge coverup and conspiracy with no evidence. What makes you any different that someone who is simply crazy and ranting at the moon? Without evidence, why should someone believe you? > [@](#): > > Many of you have not done any scientific research and are only familiar with books, the result of a research. My approach here is to stimulate folks to find their own truth with a little prodding by me. God forbids people will just believe me at my word. That’s how all this trouble started. People believing the fake portraits. I give you all tools to find out that these whitened portraits are fakes, not matching the description of the portrayed person. You have not done any scientific research. You have pretended that you have, but you don’t have any evidence and are promoting a racist lie because it seems right to you. So please don’t pretend you have any scientific integrity, if you did you wouldn’t be posting the white Obama every five posts. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/431 "2010-01-06T16:53:01Z")
[quote=“Lobohan, post:424, topic:522194”] > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Doesn’t it bother you that instead of intelligently discussing things you resort to childish links that don’t address the issue? > > Why would someone believe you? You present no intelligent arguments and your evidence is imaginary. Your thesis is utterly racist and your evidence is stuff that only you can see. Isn’t that a sign that you might be wrong? You make it so personal, like an anonymous nobody on the web takes issue and this should make me feel bad. Hell, no! Apart from the fact that this is all very one-sided and nobody adressing my sources or coming up with new ones. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/432 "2010-01-06T16:53:22Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Remember dear, Egmond Codfried bases his research on personal descriptions of blackness in the European nobility, royalty and elite. I notice that folks have a hard time hearing this. What’s the matter with you people? I think the problem lies in the fact that personal descriptions of blackness in the European nobility, royalty, and elite, do not make reference to anyone who would be described as “black” today. > [@](#): > > Now look at the six or so ‘white Obama’s’ and notice how they all differ. Now you transfer this knowledge to the historical portraits we are discussing. > > [white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) > > [white Obama] Would you like to respond to what I said about your repeated posting of this meaningless link? By the bye, there are other forums on this website where the discussion of your (ahem) interesting ideas would probably take a different, yet possibly more amusing, direction. If I started a thread in, for instance, the Pit, would you be more likely to respond there? Please let us know. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/433 "2010-01-06T16:55:56Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > You want to be spoon fed? > You want fast food while it took me three years to arrive at my theory? You wasted those years. You might have better spent them memorizing the themes, places, characters and dates from the Lord of the Rings. At least that would be rational. 😃 You don’t have any evidence and you’re promoting a racist theory. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/434 "2010-01-06T16:57:35Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > It’s a new approach. It’s useless and would not be respected in any thread on this site, much less a theory like yours that runs counter to much more convincing historical evidence. If you have a theory and real research, present it. Don’t ask people to do it for you. So: Do not do it again. No more Google links, no more “white Obama” links. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/435 "2010-01-06T16:59:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You wasted those years. You might have better spent them memorizing the themes, places, characters and dates from the Lord of the Rings. At least that would be rational. 😃 Well, there _were_ the Black Numenoreans. And the Black Riders. And the Swarthy Men. Which proves that Morgoth and Sauron were both African in ancestry! ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/436 "2010-01-06T16:59:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sorry, I miscounted: it’s 20 titled ancestors vs. 12 untitled. That makes her 5/8 black. Between 1500-1789 Blue blood stood for black blood and was visible in the face, with people looking more or less brown or black and some even having ethnic features, like Charlotte Sophie Mecklenburg being described as having a true mulatto face, yellow, brown. After 1789 they all started breeding with white, new nobles and commoners to become white. It took more or less four generations to become something passing for white. They were still painting their faces with bleaching, white make- up during the 19th century. You could try to find all of their portraits and personal description to get a idea what they might have looked like in person. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/437 "2010-01-06T17:02:08Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > You make it so personal, like an anonymous nobody on the web takes issue and this should make me feel bad. Why don’t we leave me out of this? I’m not the one making racist claims without any evidence. > [@](#): > > Apart from the fact that this is all very one-sided and nobody adressing my sources or coming up with new ones. You don’t have sources. And since you are the one suggesting that all of western history is wrong you need to provide evidence for your claim. Which you have not. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/438 "2010-01-06T17:10:21Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Between 1500-1789 Blue blood stood for black blood and was visible in the face Not true. You are just saying that because you want to believe it. You have provided no evidence for this and it is purely a fantasy based on what you want to be true. > [@](#): > > , with people looking more or less brown or black and some even having ethnic features, like Charlotte Sophie Mecklenburg being described as having a true mulatto face, yellow, brown. Not true. You are just saying that because you want to believe it. You have provided no evidence for this and it is purely a fantasy based on what you want to be true. > [@](#): > > After 1789 they all started breeding with white, new nobles and commoners to become white. It took more or less four generations to become something passing for white. They were still painting their faces with bleaching, white make- up during the 19th century. Not true. You are just saying that because you want to believe it. You have provided no evidence for this and it is purely a fantasy based on what you want to be true. > [@](#): > > You could try to find all of their portraits and personal description to get a idea what they might have looked like in person. Yes, and they all show and describe white people. The shocking thing is how utterly silly your ideas are. It’s like you don’t even grasp how big a deal this would be. It’s a profoundly simplistic and childish view of history that ignores the real world complexity and the fact that millions upon millions of people would have known it was happening. Yet for some reason only you and the uneducated people at Black Supremacist churches know the real story. Positively Shocking! ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/439 "2010-01-06T17:11:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No real scientists think the world is cooling down. It’s you, and you alone who decides who is a real scientist. That sounds weird to me. > [@](#): > > You appear to not understand how evidence works. You are suggesting a huge cover-up and conspiracy with no evidence. What makes you any different that someone who is simply crazy and ranting at the moon? Without evidence, why should someone believe you? It’s quite normal for detractors to attack scientific standards and methods, even declaring their fellow researcher insane, a liar, a cheat, a charlatan, a murderer etc. Do you know of a study which was accepted without a hitch? > [@](#): > > You have not done any scientific research. You have pretended that you have, but you don’t have any evidence and are promoting a racist lie because it seems right to you. I 'aint no racist. And you are not invested with the power to decide what the truth is and what is not. The future of my research is not decided by you on this crummy site. > [@](#): > > So please don’t pretend you have any scientific integrity, if you did you wouldn’t be posting the white Obama every five posts. I will be concluding my business here soon; as there are other sites to explore. Give me a few more minutes. Still I think you all are very polite. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/440 "2010-01-06T17:16:02Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > No, you did not, but this is my experience which I gave you to ponder. > > That’s the source. It could point to many things, among them that he was indeed black of skin in real life like his cousin Charles II Stuart. The mummy of Tutanchamon is black because he was black of skin too. > Charles V Habsburg’s mummy was also described as black with massive prognatism. There are two catalogues about two exhibitions in Belgium which show a grainy black and white photo of the mummy, taken around 1860, and a drawing of the black mummy. Oh dear. And you base your “theory” on this ? I quote : “Some of these bodies were well preserved, notably that of Louis XIII whose skin was very white ; however Louis XIV’s was black as ink”. Basic grammar parse : some/however. Assertion, contrast. Meaning Louis XIV’s body was part of the rest of the bodies, the ones who weren’t part of the “some”. Meaning the Sun King was not well preserved. It’s not rocket semantics once you get rid of the obfuscation via foreign language. And if anything, that opposition is even more salient in the original French BTW, French native and professional English-French translator here. I’m saying this just in case you were dreaming of doubting or dismissing the point off handedly. Just like you completely ignored that pesky bit of your own damn cite : “ **There is no indication here that this was his pre-death appearance** ”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=23)