# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/461 "2010-01-06T18:01:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > This is now turning into some kind of bizarre, retroactively-revanchist fantasy on _your_ part to imagine some kind of black domination of Europe. You are spouting pure nonsense and it is beginning to appear similar to the rantings of a schizophrenic, homeless New York street preacher. Then why do you bother to answer, dear? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/462 "2010-01-06T18:04:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Doesn’t it bother you that your evidence is completely unrelated to your claims? > > You are not a scientist. You are a layperson who doesn’t know how to evaluate evidence. Posting a random link that is unrelated to your claims isn’t evidence. The books mentioned, the practice of using human leather in confined to 1500-1789. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/463 "2010-01-06T18:04:04Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Then why do you bother to answer, dear? Because you are the most ignorant person we’ve had come here in awhile. And this site is about fighting ignorance. You have a childish fantasy that promotes a racist lie. Why would you expect that people would let it lay? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/464 "2010-01-06T18:05:34Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Oh, I just can’t resist (and I notice you’ve ignored my question to you). > > Why would this necessarily only be how a black elite would view its white subjects? About 60 years ago, there was a white European elite that did a pretty good job of brutalizing its white subjects. Of course, there are thousands of other examples of elites brutalizing their subject populations throughout history. This has NOTHING to do with race. > > And as for the French Revolution, I think most of us reasonably attribute the “fieriness” of the French Revolution to factors such as crushing taxation, a rigid social hierarchy, famine, etc. Why do you think that racism is a better explanation than those other, more conventional, reasons? Did you read all the preceding pages, like you would read a book before you start asking questions? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/465 "2010-01-06T18:06:07Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The books mentioned, the practice of using human leather in confined to 1500-1789. And how does this promote the idea that the ruling classes of Europe in that time were secretly black people? Posting a random fact doesn’t support your thesis. Never mind the fact that genetic testing proves your bizarre racist fantasy is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/466 "2010-01-06T18:06:37Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://www.luminarium.org/editions/maskblack.htm](http://www.luminarium.org/editions/maskblack.htm) > > [http://argentphoenix.com/images/Inigo\_Jones,\_design\_for\_Masque\_of\_Blackness\_1605.jpg](http://argentphoenix.com/images/Inigo_Jones,_design_for_Masque_of_Blackness_1605.jpg) > > [Anne of Denmark] > > The Masque of Blackness was commissioned by Anne of Denmark, the grandmother of The Black Boy, Charles II Stuart. > > After reading the whole play I concluded it was written in praise of black beauty, which does not fade, and goes on to explain how blacks came to Europe looking for a milder sun. The Queen played the River Niger, a west African river. Play’s? Really? It’s seams not to matter anyhow… [http://www.whowillsurvive2012.com/](http://www.whowillsurvive2012.com/) we are all going to die… I saw it in the play,… the Watchtower is warning us about it all along I’ve seen the play… we are all going to die anyhow in 2 years. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/467 "2010-01-06T18:07:37Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Did you read all the preceding pages, like you would read a book before you start asking questions? Oh yes - I’ve been following this farce from Page 1. Do you have any substantive answers to my questions, especially the first one I posed? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/468 "2010-01-06T18:09:18Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Hey **Egmond** , could tell us about your devastating evidence that Jane Austen was black? Not devastating dear, only that I cannot believe there should be no proper portret of such a famous writer, but a poor sketch by her sister Cassandra. Cassandra’s own portrait shows ethnicity to me. Next their mother had some nobility, and might be the source of their classical African features which we are not allowed to see. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/469 "2010-01-06T18:10:22Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Oh yes - I’ve been following this farce from Page 1. Do you have any substantive answers to my questions, especially the first one I posed? You use the word farce, which concludes my dealings with you. Goodby. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/470 "2010-01-06T18:12:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Never mind the fact that genetic testing proves your bizarre racist fantasy is wrong. sources please? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/471 "2010-01-06T18:13:18Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The Masque of Blackness was commissioned by Anne of Denmark, the grandmother of The Black Boy, Charles II Stuart. Why are you responding to this post again and ignoring posts that take down central parts of your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/472 "2010-01-06T18:15:36Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > You use the word farce, which concludes my dealings with you. Goodby. You are promoting a racist lie. How is that not a farce? You have no evidence and simply point to pictures of white people and say they’re black. Your whole scenario is proven wrong by modern genetic science wholly aside from the fact that it takes a childishly simplistic view of society and human culture to even suggest it. Your claims make less sense than Santa Claus and no serious adult who even has a modicum of skepticism would even find they were possible. Your racist power fantasy has no evidence going for it and mountains of evidence going against it. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/473 "2010-01-06T18:17:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That’s some first-rate well poison you got there… I was meaning to ask, might you be German? I’m familiar with this expression from reading about Marlene Dietrich about the nazies. Or is it normal American usage? Try to answer without a put down or insult. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/474 "2010-01-06T18:19:00Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > You use the word farce, which concludes my dealings with you. Goodby. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, but this certainly is a [farce](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/farce): 4 a: a ridiculous or empty show Since you apparently don’t wish to argue your case with me, but would rather withdraw in petulance, I wish to leave you once again with my first question, which I hope will subtly ring a note of dischord in your subconscious: _Is it possible you are wrong?_ ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/475 "2010-01-06T18:19:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are promoting a racist lie. How is that not a farce? > > You have no evidence and simply point to pictures of white people and say they’re black. Your whole scenario is proven wrong by modern genetic science wholly aside from the fact that it takes a childishly simplistic view of society and human culture to even suggest it. > > Your claims make less sense than Santa Claus and no serious adult who even has a modicum of skepticism would even find they were possible. > > Your racist power fantasy has no evidence going for it and mountains of evidence going against it. isn’t there some rule about people posting the same argument or remark over and over again. I get your point, you do not need to repeat. I’m trying to answer some older questions now. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/476 "2010-01-06T18:21:38Z")
He can’t be wrong, for he is EGMOND! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/477 "2010-01-06T18:21:45Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > sources please? We have done genetic testing and people left Africa 60 thousand years ago and haven’t had a large scale influx from Africa until modern times allowed greater mobility. We were all Africans originally, and the modern blacks living in Africa now are just as far removed from the original men that left 60k years ago as the Swedes are. So I’m not sure why you find embracing such outright illogical fantasies necessary. [https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html](https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html) ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/478 "2010-01-06T18:27:56Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > So, when you hear an Afrocentric person talking, (not the OP, I mean, a real one) try looking at them as someone on a journey. You can educate them and help them along on their journy. Or you can just go bananas and start seriously debating whether or not rock and roll is black or white. Either way. Dear, where did I fail you? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/479 "2010-01-06T18:29:01Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > isn’t there some rule about people posting the same argument or remark over and over again. I get your point, you do not need to repeat. I’m trying to answer some older questions now. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/480 "2010-01-06T18:39:02Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Scientific\_racism\_irish.gif](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Scientific_racism_irish.gif) > > Black Irish resemble Negroes according to this American cartoon. It’s hard to judge, as one cannot read the text on the cartoon, but it looks to be racist, comparing the Irish to blacks, saying that blacks are inferior, and that the Irish aren’t much better. It’s insulting to both. You couldn’t have picked a worse example. > [@jayjay](#): > > And the Hapsburg Jaw was a Hapsburg trait, not a black one. The look was massively exacerbated by the inbreeding that characterized the Hapsburgs’ generational political weddery (don’t bother looking that up…I think I just coined it). They wanted to make sure all the family wealth and political power stayed in the family, so they married family. A lot. This does strange things to the genetics. Indeed – one only need to look at poor [Charles II of Spain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain). He had an underbite so severe he couldn’t even chew his food properly. (Although that was the least of the man’s problems, poor thing.) > [@Marley23](#): > > **Argent Towers** also pointed out that one of your co-writers incorrectly believes that the name “Stuart” MEANS dark or swarthy. You have not responded to any of these points. [Ahem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11917160&postcount=183). Give credit where credit is due, please. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=25)