# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Moulay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8edcca/32.png) [@Moulay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moulay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/501 "2010-01-06T22:07:17Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The Black Europeans I’m talking about are descendents of the first Europeans, the Grimaldi Human, which entered Europe 43.000 years ago. They lived on till way into the 19th century, their numbers augmented by the Garamante, who were brought in 50 BC to Europe by Caesar to fight Germanic peoples. M. Codfried still did not react on the refutations of his paragraph, where he explains where the Black nobility would have came from: - the [Grimaldi man](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimaldi_Man), which is an early 20th century hoax - the [Garamantes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes) who came with Julius Caesar ([who was black too](http://derekclontz.com/2008/06/24/new-study-proves-it-julius-caesar-was-black-and-from-africa/)). [Julius C. writes](http://everything2.com/title/The+Gallic+Wars+Book+2+Chapter+10) about his [Numidian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numidians)cavalry, not about Garamantes. Anyway, there is no proof that either Numidians or Garamantes were black. On the contrary, they were Berbers. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/502 "2010-01-06T22:15:37Z")
Well then obviously the Berbers were…BLACK! The Egyptians were black, the Hebrews were black, the ancient Romans were black, the Greeks were black, Henry VIII was black, Louis XIV was black, Shakespeare and Mozart and Leonardo da Vinco…were all BLACK! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/503 "2010-01-06T23:08:06Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > We have done genetic testing and people left Africa 60 thousand years ago and haven’t had a large scale influx from Africa until modern times allowed greater mobility. > > We were all Africans originally, and the modern blacks living in Africa now are just as far removed from the original men that left 60k years ago as the Swedes are. So I’m not sure why you find embracing such outright illogical fantasies necessary. > > [The Genographic Project® Geno 2.0 Next Generation Helix Product Privacy Policy | National Geographic](https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html) Well, you know, science is no good because two people can look at DNA and have different opinions, so it can’t be trusted. Now, _misquoted plays and pamphlets and 500 year old paintings_, on the other hand… > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The Egyptians were black, the Hebrews were black, the ancient Romans were black, the Greeks were black, Henry VIII was black, Louis XIV was black, Shakespeare and Mozart and Leonardo da Vinco…were all BLACK! So you’re saying they were from New Zealand? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/504 "2010-01-06T23:18:07Z")
500 year old paintings are a perfectly good source for historical information - but **Egmond** is telling outright lies about the paintings. If he thinks that John “Black-faced” Clifford has “typical African features” and the only thing white about his painting is the color of his skin, it’s no different from someone pointing at a painting of a horse and insisting that it’s a yak. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/505 "2010-01-06T23:23:49Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > …it’s no different from someone pointing at a painting of a horse and insisting that it’s a yak. Oh I see you believe all that propaganda about how Europeans used to ride horses. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/506 "2010-01-06T23:42:55Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > 500 year old paintings are a perfectly good source for historical information - but **Egmond** is telling outright lies about the paintings. Don’t call other posters liars in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/507 "2010-01-06T23:50:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IF Washington had a black son, that I could possibly believe – it wasn’t uncommon for men of his time to have affairs with their slaves. (Though I’ve never seen any mention of it for Washington) The person who’s potentially George Washington’s son is West Ford, who was one of Washington’s brother’s slave. Ford’s descendants claim that he was Washington’s son, but most historians don’t believe it. It’s possible, though. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/508 "2010-01-06T23:50:09Z")
Okay. **Egmond** is saying incorrect things about paintings. Very, very incorrect things. I guess if someone was pointing at a blue car in a painting and insisting that it was yellow with purple stripes, he wouldn’t be a liar. I don’t know what he would be. But whatever he would be, that’s what **Egmond** is. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/509 "2010-01-07T00:03:46Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > After reading the whole play I concluded it was written in praise of black beauty, which does not fade, and goes on to explain how blacks came to Europe looking for a milder sun. The Queen played the River Niger, a west African river. The Queen played Euphoris, a water nymph, the daughter of Niger. And, as was mentioned, first, they wore blackface, which wouldn’t have been necessary if the players were themselves black. As someone who saw the masque said: > [@](#): > > their Faces and Arms up to the Elbows, were painted black, which was a Disguise sufficient, for they were hard to be known…and you cannot imagine a more ugly sight Second, as has been mentioned, the masque was hardly in praise of black beauty. The plot of the masque was that the sea nymphs wanted to be white, so they came to England so that King James could cure them of their blackness. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/510 "2010-01-07T02:07:53Z")
BTW, I can’t remember, where DID **Egmond** say that the “black boy” nickname for Charles came from? (Meaning, what was his source?) I can’t remember if he mentioned it in any of his posts or not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/511 "2010-01-07T02:24:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > BTW, I can’t remember, where DID **Egmond** say that the “black boy” nickname for Charles came from? (Meaning, what was his source?) I can’t remember if he mentioned it in any of his posts or not. He didn’t. He says over and over that Charles II was called “the black boy” (no source), “a tall black man” (which has been shown to be false), and “the swarthy Stuart” (shown to be way out of context). **Argent Towers** , I agree that **Egmond Codfried** is seeing things in the paintings that aren’t there and that he’s wrong. And not just a little wrong, either. I have no idea how anyone could believe any of the royals in these paintings were black, no matter how badly they wanted to believe it. And yes, you can get historical information from a painting. I shouldn’t have been that definitive about it. But if I had to figure out someone’s ancestry, I would prefer DNA to a centuries-old painting. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/512 "2010-01-07T03:33:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IF Washington had a black son, that I could possibly believe – it wasn’t uncommon for men of his time to have affairs with their slaves. (Though I’ve never seen any mention of it for Washington) He was too busy with the local rich white women. [This book](http://www.amazon.com/Making-Prefident-1789-Unauthorized-Biography/dp/0802137350) has a two-page spread of “All the Prefident’s Girlfriends.” [Sally Fairfax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sally_Fairfax.jpg) had a Sigourney Weaver thing going on. > [@jayjay](#): > > I was born and raised in Pennsylvania. Oh, so you ARE German? 😉 Note to Egmond: Some 17% of Americans claim to be of German ancestry. Many more probably have a little German in them, or in their great grandmothers. \ Assuming an American is German is pretty darned safe, to the point that asking, “Are you German,” is not nearly the insult that it might be in Europe. We just don’t have the history. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/513 "2010-01-07T03:38:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Okay. **Egmond** is saying incorrect things about paintings. Very, very incorrect things. I guess if someone was pointing at a blue car in a painting and insisting that it was yellow with purple stripes, he wouldn’t be a liar. I don’t know what he would be. But whatever he would be, that’s what **Egmond** is. This reminds me of a great quote from a book, “I’m not saying she was silly, but I’m saying that one of us was silly, and it wasn’t me.” ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/514 "2010-01-07T04:05:32Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Well, dear, do you know how scientists study the same facts and arrive at two very different and opposite outcomes? The one says the earth is warming up, the others says it’s cooling down. > > How do you explain this? One group is made up of real scientists, the other group has a political axe to grind. You’re right, it is very similar to this situation. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/515 "2010-01-07T04:33:55Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Oh, so you ARE German? 😉 Heh. Part-German, actually. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/516 "2010-01-07T04:45:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Heh. Part-German, actually. And as an aware person you noted the implied insult, but as a polite person you chose to ignore it? Good boy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/517 "2010-01-07T06:13:43Z")
I’m Irish-German-Polish-Slovak-Hungarian. Where do I stand? (My Hungarian/Slovak grandfather had a rather swarthy complexion and thick, black hair, btw) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/518 "2010-01-07T06:39:25Z")
You’re **BLACK.** ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/519 "2010-01-07T10:50:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m Irish-German-Polish-Slovak-Hungarian. Where do I stand? (My Hungarian/Slovak grandfather had a rather swarthy complexion and thick, black hair, btw) Your **BLACK** So am I, my Grandpa (not my Grandma she is green), Bill Clinton, Napoleon, Obama, Hitler (closely related to Obama -source Fox-News), George W.Bush Jr. & Seniour, Genghis Khan, Putin (incl. his son Stalin) and Homer Simpson. We are actually still ruled by the Black Supremacy, they are members of the Who-Knew-Klux-Illuminati-Clan which is also at fault for the current ecconomic crises and the bad weather and the cold we are suffering at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/520 "2010-01-07T11:01:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Assuming an American is German is pretty darned safe, to the point that asking, “Are you German,” is not nearly the insult that it might be in Europe. We just don’t have the history. Just to clarify, why it would be an insult to ask somebody in Europe the question: “Are you German?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=27)