# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/561 "2010-01-07T14:58:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. But you will be warned the next time you ignore my instructions. I asked you to take these questions to another forum or private messages. I also asked you to stick to your topic without going off into tangents about September 11th, the Nazis, or anything else unrelated to your original subject. I’ve been patient and **you’re dancing on my last nerve**. A tarantalla? Gavotte? Galliard? Maybe even (gasp) a pavan? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/562 "2010-01-07T15:13:04Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > [This guy?](http://www.wga.hu/art/k/key/adriaan/william1.jpg) > > He looks like Robert DeNiro to me. Is Robert DeNiro black? [![](http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/36000/White-Obama--36389.jpg) ](http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/36000/White-Obama--36389.jpg) Obama; does he look black to you? Is Obama white because of some frigging whitened portrait? > [@](#): > > If your only point is that there was a lot of genetic diversity in Europe (especially in the ruling classes, since they often married people from other parts of the continent often for diplomatic reasons), then yeah, we get that. Where are your sources for this nonsense? > [@](#): > > If not, then what is your point? The portraits do not match the personal descriptions as black or brown. > [@](#): > > And why is everything that refutes your point allegorical or fabricated, while every piece of evidence you cite supports your point only when shorn of context? Is the earth warming up or cooling down? I choose the theory which I like, which gives me something to built on. I’m moving on in order to be able to explain the origins of scientific racism against blacks and I’m free to do so. What did blacks do to make whites so angry? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/563 "2010-01-07T15:14:35Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The portraits do not match the descriptions as black or brown. They do if they have black or brown hair. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/564 "2010-01-07T15:23:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I disagree, and when you’re this dismissive of other people it damages your chances of having your own theory taken seriously. As it is, you’ve linked to dozens of portraits and said either ‘this person has African features’ or ‘this person is black and the portrait has been repainted.’ That’s been the majority of your evidence to this point and it’s not even a little bit convincing because none of the nobles you linked to looks like he or she could even possibly be black. > > It looks to me like the other posters (like **APB** ) know more about your sources than you do. You need to demonstrate your own knowledge. Prove the “swarthy” description was being applied to Charles II and not his statue, or that the “tall black man” quote is accurate. EDIT: Just to be clear, I’m speaking as a poster here and not moderating. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/African_man_portrait_Mostaert.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/African_man_portrait_Mostaert.jpg) An African man, anonymous Spanish noble man at the Hapsburg court by Mostaert [did you see this one?] If this anonymous poster thinks he has discredited the source I have posted, he should publish a study and find a way to have this universally accepted. I’m not going to waste my time with someone hanging some nonsense over my head. Most portraits I have posted have to be viewed in conjunction with the personal descriptions I have found which say there colour was brown or black or they looked mulatto. I have defined them as a endogamous, mulatto race, some looking more African, Asian or white. But they considered themselves non-white because they accepted the identity of blue blood, which is black blood, because that’s how black Europeans were known. Blacks and coloureds come in all shapes and forms. Black or brown skin is the first quality to determine if someone is white or black or a mix. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/565 "2010-01-07T15:24:29Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/36000/White-Obama--36389.jpg](http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/36000/White-Obama--36389.jpg) > > Obama; does he look black to you? Is Obama white because of some frigging whitened portrait? What do photoshopped pictures of our president have to do with anything? Are you saying that ALL Early Modern royal portraiture is falsified? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If your only point is that there was a lot of genetic diversity in Europe (especially in the ruling classes, since they often married people from other parts of the continent often for diplomatic reasons), then yeah, we get that. > > Where are your sources for this nonsense? Mostly the (better) links you’ve posted, actually. Charles II was Italian on his mother’s side, for example. If you’re talking about marriage for diplomatic reasons, this is covered in every Western Civ textbook. And please, do not call real history nonsense after exposing the SDMB to your rain of bullshit. > [@](#): > > Is the earth warming up or cooling down? I choose the theory which I like, which gives me something to built on. Choosing a theory isn’t so siimple as closing your eyes and pointing. Good researchers look for evidence \*against \*which to test their assertions, not just ephemera that might appear to support them. Your own sources provide context to correct most of the errors you’re making here. Read them. ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/566 "2010-01-07T15:24:57Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Here is another source or fact for you. > Calling somebody black, especially a couple of hundred years ago, in Europe meant something completely different than today in the modern world. Do I have to take your word for this or are you gonna proof this to me? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/567 "2010-01-07T15:31:21Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > An African man, anonymous Spanish noble man at the Hapsburg court by Mostaert > > [did you see this one?] Yes, _that_ man looks black. (And you did post a link to one painting that included a black woman.) And of course, they look nothing like Charles II or any of the identifiable royals you have discussed. > [@](#): > > If this anonymous poster thinks he has discredited the source I have posted, he should publish a study and find a way to have this universally accepted. What studies have you published? Your theory isn’t universally accepted. In fact it’s accepted by almost no one. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to waste my time with someone hanging some nonsense over my head. What are you doing here, then? If you don’t want to support your arguments - other than linking to portraits and coming up with your own interpretations of what they mean - why bother posting? > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Do I have to take your word for this or are you gonna proof this to me? I’ve been asking you to prove your definition for two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/568 "2010-01-07T15:31:33Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > But they considered themselves non-white because they accepted the identity of blue blood, which is black blood, because that’s how black Europeans were known. Yet you never back this up with anything but your own delusions. How about some credible cites, **Egmond**? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/569 "2010-01-07T15:34:57Z")
> [@Moulay](#): > > - the motivation of Verneau does not take away the falseness of his claim. We also don’t know who created the Piltdown Man hoax, nor why it was done, but in the meantime, we known that it’s a hoax. Would it be less of a hoax if we knew the motivation or the author? > - Caesar, in his “de bello gallico”, said he had light armored Numidians, as you could read in the Latin text or its translation. There is no evidence that Numidians were black. Looking at their descendants, they are not. > > That leaves you without explanation where the black people came from. [http://www.newint.org/issue378/pics/life-3.jpg](http://www.newint.org/issue378/pics/life-3.jpg) A Tubu man. They were the Garamante. The Gramante had their hair in a ‘crest,’ which I understand to be dreadlocks. Based on some drawing on the web, now gone. The British Museum has a little statue of a warrior from around this period which shows a dreadlocked man. I believe him to be such a warrior. I do not consider the Grimaldi Man a hoax. Does it mean I will be taken out and shot? I have use for the Grimaldi Man to situate blacks in Europe. Next I have Snowden (1971) which takes care of blacks in Europe (800 BC-300AD). Than I have posted extensive sources on blacks in Europe (500-1500), which off course nobody noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/570 "2010-01-07T15:57:34Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/36000/White-Obama--36389.jpg](http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/36000/White-Obama--36389.jpg) > > Obama; does he look black to you? Is Obama white because of some frigging whitened portrait? For the umpteenth time - Photoshopped pictures of Obama do not prove anything. Other than the undoubted fact that your crackpot theory is based on nothing at all. > [@Marley23](#): > > So: Do not do it again. No more Google links, no more “white Obama” links. IANAMod, but perhaps this has gone on long enough. Certainly it has for me - fun is fun, but this isn’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/571 "2010-01-07T16:01:21Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > What did blacks do to make whites so angry? Wrong place, wrong time. No Guns. Bad luck. Why are blacks so angry with whites? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/572 "2010-01-07T16:08:41Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Do I have to take your word for this or are you gonna proof this to me? Why should we be held to a higher standard than you are? ---
**Author:** ![Egmond\_Codfried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Egmond\_Codfried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Egmond_Codfried)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/573 "2010-01-07T16:28:59Z")
\*\* Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 … Last Page) Egmond Codfried\*\* 571 postings 22,511 viewings We have a winner with this thread and I take full credit. No need to shut it down, but some stricter discipline would do. Moderator already said garbage, so how much will he contribute to make it better? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/574 "2010-01-07T16:39:58Z")
Buh-bye. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/575 "2010-01-07T16:52:23Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > \*\* > Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 … Last Page) > Egmond Codfried\*\* > > 571 postings > 22,511 viewings > > We have a winner with this thread and I take full credit. > No need to shut it down, but some stricter discipline would do. > Moderator already said garbage, so how much will he contribute to make it better? Please…I started the longest thread on this board. And it’s about an imaginary fantasy world that only exists on the internet and the minds of enthusiasts. Not entirely unlike your thread, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/576 "2010-01-07T16:54:40Z")
We’re done here. Bye, **Egmond Codfried**. I think this man deserves the last word: [The Black Knight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Knight_(Monty_Python)): I AM INVINCIBLE! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=28)