# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/121 "2009-12-22T18:41:55Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Have to go! That would be my guess, too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/122 "2009-12-22T18:42:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Get all snarky about it, if that’s how you feel - you know where the Pit is. I’m not getting snarky. I’m giving you an instruction as a moderator: it’s a valid topic if you want to comment on it, but this thread is not the place for it. So either take it to ATMB or drop it now. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/123 "2009-12-22T18:46:48Z")
I’m sure someone has asked this up thread, but where is the DNA evidence that any of this bullshit is true? Afaik, there is no supporting scientific evidence at all…just speculation, supposition and interpretation. Going on wood cut prints and paintings to attempt to determine the relative ‘blackness’ of a person is pretty silly, all things considered. REAL evidence would be that showing African DNA types in prominent European families of the time. Where is that evidence? Or, has it been suppressed by the white overlords…? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/124 "2009-12-22T18:48:31Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Let the idea sink in. They could just as easily be space aliens. It covers the exact same issues, has the exact same amount of supporting evidence, and falls just barely behind your hypothesis in the plausibility scale. You have yet to present any evidence that supports your case. The paintings don’t show what you claim they show. The contemporary descriptions haven’t been put in context. The fashions of the time are quite well explained by the desire to place the elite away from the working classes (and have been repeated many times in history). Your references to albinos are factually wrong. And you have mountains of evidence (including DNA which has been gathered from the descendants of the kings of Europe) that directly conflicts with your hypothesis. And you refuse to answer as single direct question without posting another useless painting, hand waving about racism, or ignoring the question. On the SDMB we hold people presenting hypothesis to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/125 "2009-12-22T18:48:53Z")
I thought the overlords were all black? 😕 I’m so confused. Must come from being a sun-struck albino. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/126 "2009-12-22T18:57:16Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Well, I have collected about twentyfive personal description of kings and nobles, which describes them as black, coloured and etnic looking. Because of internmarriage this can be multiplied by parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents, children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. > I consider this a good sample for my research purposes. Well the fact you consider 25 descriptions of kings and nobles to be “a good sample” tells me pretty much all I need to know about the quality of your “research.” Though your “theory” does, of course, explain [Edward, the Black Prince](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward,_the_Black_Prince). ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/127 "2009-12-22T18:58:26Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > I say that racism started because the white Americans did not want to be dominated by black royals anymore. Queen Anne Stuart was ruling during this time. You can put a date and give a reason for racism, its all quite rational if you are a rational person. such a devastating system did not drop from heaven, it was thought out and implemented and enforced. This makes no sense. You’re saying white Americans didn’t want to be dominated by black royals. This means that white Americans knew that the royals were (supposedly) black. However, there is no mention of this in any of the revolutionary propaganda at the time. Do you have a cite of some American decrying the European black nobility? Nothing would make the southern colonies rebel against England faster than the claim that the rulers were black. Likewise, you say… > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The structure during this period can be described as Reversed Apartheid, with a noble, black minority dominating a white and coloured majority. The French Revolution was the turning point. Hence racism can be deconstructed as an overwrought liberation ideology to free Europe from Black Superiority. Do you have a cite of any French revolutionary leading the masses with allegations of black nobility? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/128 "2009-12-22T19:06:47Z")
**Egmond** , congratulations. For once, all political persuasions on this messageboard, people of many different races, creeds, nations, and countries, are united - in disagreeing with your tenuous “evidence” and hand-waving arguments. It’s a heartwarming tale, worthy of this holiday season. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/129 "2009-12-22T19:10:01Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > **Egmond** , congratulations. For once, all political persuasions on this messageboard, people of many different races, creeds, nations, and countries, are united - in disagreeing with your tenuous “evidence” and hand-waving arguments. > > It’s a heartwarming tale, worthy of this holiday season. Thank you. That’s because we’re all white supremacist racists. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/130 "2009-12-22T19:13:02Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Important here is that people who will benefit from change will be more prepared to consider my theories. > > People who benefit from the status quo will reject every point I make and even ridicule my views. Considering that the US famously doesn’t have royalty, I’m assuming your talking about Europeans? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/131 "2009-12-22T19:21:00Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Considering that the US famously doesn’t have royalty, I’m assuming your talking about Europeans? Well how do you explain [Prince Fielder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Fielder)? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/132 "2009-12-22T19:21:59Z")
The King of Pop used to be black, once. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/133 "2009-12-22T19:23:31Z")
I’m going to tell you something, **Egmond Codfried** - most people think these theories are ridiculously implausible already, but dishing out your arguments in a poorly-written, poorly-punctuated, ungrammatical, and horribly-arranged fashion is only going to hurt your cause and discredit you. As to you “Afrocentrists” - stick to celebrating your own heritage. **Stop trying to claim the heritage of others as your own.** The Jews were not black, the Greeks were not black, Beethoven was not black, Shakespeare was not black, Jesus was not black and the goddamn Houses of Tudor, Stuart and Hanover were most certainly not black, to say nothing of the Hapsburgs, Hohenzollerns, Guelphs, Medicis, Barberinis, the Valois and Bourbons, and the other illustrious dynasties that ruled over Renaissance and early modern Europe, who were **NOT BLACK!** **Stop trying to appropriate _other peoples’ history_**. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/134 "2009-12-22T19:27:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That’s because we’re all white supremacist racists. Duh. Apparently, I’m not. Based on the arguement presented by **Egmond Codfried** , and using an exhaustive analysis of family photos, I am, in fact, frequently a reddish / pinkish hue, suggesting that I am not of European ancestry as I had always believed, but rather that I am Native American, or First Nations Canadian. Whodathunkit? Unfortunately, I can’t use DNA evidence to sort this out, as it is, according to the OP, unreliable. Curiously, my eyes seem to emit red beams of hellish light in the nighttime photos- what ethnicity would that suggest? Oh, and welcome to the Dope, **Egmond Codfried**. I hope you enjoy your time here as much as I do. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/135 "2009-12-22T19:37:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m sure someone has asked this up thread, but where is the DNA evidence that any of this bullshit is true? Afaik, there is no supporting scientific evidence at all…just speculation, supposition and interpretation. Going on wood cut prints and paintings to attempt to determine the relative ‘blackness’ of a person is pretty silly, all things considered. REAL evidence would be that showing African DNA types in prominent European families of the time. Where is that evidence? Well, like he said, DNA evidence is suspect. Two people can look at the same result and come to two different conclusions. Say the probability of a match is a hundred billion to one, well, that could still go either way, right? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/136 "2009-12-22T19:37:10Z")
[Obviously black.](http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/img/King.Henry.VIII.jpg) [Another clearly black man.](http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/72/Henry-stuart-darnley.jpg) [Black city.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Francis1-1.jpg) [Another handsome specimen of African-French blood.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Antoine-de-bourbon.jpg) [Quite clearly of African descent.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Erik_XIV_%281533-1577%29_Domenicus_Verwildt.jpg) [Yet another African-European.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Charles_V%2C_Holy_Roman_Emperor_by_Tizian.jpg) [As black as Shaq.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Michiel_Jansz_van_Mierevelt_-_Maurits_van_Nassau,_prins_van_Oranje_en_Stadhouder.jpg) [A handsome bunch of Dutch-Africans.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Four_generations_Princes_of_Orange_-_William_I,_Maurice_and_Frederick_Henry,_William_II,_William_III_(Willem_van_Honthorst,_1662).jpg) That’s right. ALL BLACK!!! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/137 "2009-12-22T19:37:12Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > As to you “Afrocentrists” - stick to celebrating your own heritage. **Stop trying to claim the heritage of others as your own.** That’s the sad part. [Africa’s own history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_in_pre-colonial_Africa) is easily as long and as exciting as European/Middle Eastern history. Empires, kingdoms, wars, great civilizations, conflict, rivalries, cultures…African history is at least as complicated and epic as European history is. You don’t find Europeans claiming that the rulers of ancient Mali, Songhai or Great Zimbabwe were white. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/138 "2009-12-22T19:40:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m sure someone has asked this up thread, but where is the DNA evidence that any of this bullshit is true? Our guest stated upthread that he does not believe in DNA because people disagree about global warming. Or something. > [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > My God, why am I replying to this thread? Tell me, father, am I going to Hell? You’re not _going_ to hell - you’re **in** hell. This is your punishment - for the rest of eternity, you are locked in a debate with **Egmond Codfried**. And, as the old punch line goes, ‘[you are gonna hate Fridays](http://www.jokes.com/funny/whatever/fridays-in-hell).’ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/139 "2009-12-22T19:40:48Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Well, like he said, DNA evidence is suspect. Two people can look at the same result and come to two different conclusions. Unlike a painting, which everyone automatically agrees to one and only one interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/140 "2009-12-22T19:42:41Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Obviously black.](http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/img/King.Henry.VIII.jpg) Hot Damn! I’m black! Good thing I don’t have a wife, too. 🙂 I’m also interested to see what **Egmond Codfried** makes of anti-semitism. Does the fact that most of Europe was strongly anti-semitic mean that their rulers were Jewish? Semites tend to have black hair and darker complexion too. I promise I’m not asking this _just_ to throw fuel on the fire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=8)