# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/141 "2009-12-22T19:43:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If you want your argument to go anywhere, you have to show that “black” meant the same thing to Europeans in 1500 that it means to us today. You’re asking us to take that for granted, which would be a huge leap of faith. Why does “black,” as applied to Charles, refer to African ancestry rather than a dark (by white standards) complexion? As far as I’m aware, the use of the term “black” to refer to someone of African ancestry didn’t come into common usage until the [Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people#United_States). Prior to that the common term was Negro. Prior to that, African, Moor, or the actual tribe name. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/142 "2009-12-22T19:50:04Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Hot Damn! I’m black! Good thing I don’t have a wife, too. 🙂 > > I’m also interested to see what **Egmond Codfried** makes of anti-semitism. Does the fact that most of Europe was strongly anti-semitic mean that their rulers were Jewish? Semites tend to have black hair and darker complexion too. > > I promise I’m not asking this _just_ to throw fuel on the fire. They weren’t really anti-“Semitic”, they were just against anyone who wasn’t Catholic. Jews who converted to were generally just seen as no longer Jewish and treated like any other Catholic. Except for Spain’s “purity of blood” laws (and even those were not always really enforced) the idea of being against Jews on “racial” grounds is a 20th century phenomenon. I do have a hard time believing that [Francis I of France](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Francis1-1.jpg) was not at least _partially_ Jewish. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/143 "2009-12-22T19:52:28Z")
So let’s say I were to accept your hypothesis. Blue blood is black blood and racism in America started because we were tired of being ruled over by black nobles. OK. so what’s your contention? That we’re still racist today because we have passed down from generation to generation the knowledge that blacks ruled us and we need to fight back? If so, why would we need reminding of who these rulers really were? Clearly we already know it! Or perhaps your contention is that we’re still racist today despite not remembering that our ancestor’s rulers were black. And if so…how would reminding us of this fact actually help the situation? All you’re going to end up doing is pissing people off. “Yeah, that’s right. The black man DID keep us down!” You seem to be making the claim that your research will actually solve racism. So…how? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/144 "2009-12-22T19:53:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You don’t find Europeans claiming that the rulers of ancient Mali, Songhai or Great Zimbabwe were white. Well, there is [Prester John](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/145 "2009-12-22T20:02:18Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Well, there is [Prester John](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John). That was contemporary, though. No one today claims that Prester John or his kingdom actually existed. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/146 "2009-12-22T20:18:45Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Have to go! Noooo!!! Man. You got them coming out of the woodwork in this thread. Welcome to the dope! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/147 "2009-12-22T20:19:54Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > In color. > > [File:Charles II of England Stuart by John Riley.JPG - Wikimedia Commons](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_II_of_England_Stuart_by_John_Riley.JPG) Huh. Kinda looks like Walter Mathau in that one. Kinda like a cross between Mathau and Captain Hook. > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > The identity was blue blood, which was black blood. [According to wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_blood): “This is said to derive from the fact that the native Spanish had _fairer skin_, which displays veins more prominently, than people of Arab origin.” Italics MINE. :dubious: Oh, and by the way, > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [white obama - Google Zoeken](http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white%20obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) > > Please consider images of a white Barack Obama. > Does these make him a white man? I don’t think they had Photoshop around in Charles’s day. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/148 "2009-12-22T20:21:46Z")
Just as an additional note, the trans-African slave trade started before 1789, and in fact, was on its way out in the 1780s. Actually, the first African slaves in the Americas got there around 1500. So it really doesn’t make sense to say that the period of 1500-1789 was the time of black dominance over Europe and that racism in Europe and the US was a response to that (and I can find you a bunch of European and American texts from the 17th and 18th century claiming that Africans were naturally inferior . If anything, I’d say that European racism developed because of the slave trade and slavery system. As Africa became more and more a source of slaves, the people taking and owning those slaves developed racist ideas as a sort of justification for that slavery. Blacks are naturally inferior, the slave owners said, and we’re doing them a favor by forcing them into slavery, because if they weren’t inferior, then our enslaving them would make us bad people, and we know we’re not. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/149 "2009-12-22T20:27:56Z")
> [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > [http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/3071692709\_e891935144\_b1.jpg](http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/3071692709_e891935144_b1.jpg) > > A black Jesus. There are many, I will show them. look for Russian Icons > There are also many blue Jesus’. blue blood is black blood > Sistine Chapel might have been overpainted. When did they add the loin clothes? > But whites had to be placated, to give legitimacy to black rule too. All supposition. The “black Jesus” in your link is a choice of medium. I’ve seen sculptures of Abraham Lincoln in ebony as well. It’s not an ethnic thing. It has been demonstrated that “blue blood is black blood” is fallacious. To maintain that position without citation is asinine. Daniele obscured the Sistine Chapel’s genitalia in 1565, and was roundly criticized for doing so. This criticism did not extend to any lightening of the figures’ flesh. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/150 "2009-12-22T20:29:23Z")
So OP is saying that my white ancestors were oppressed by a nobility class that was secretly black. Wow. The more you know, I guess. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/151 "2009-12-22T20:34:06Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > They weren’t really anti-“Semitic”, they were just against anyone who wasn’t Catholic. Jews who converted to were generally just seen as no longer Jewish and treated like any other Catholic. Oh, no. Persecution of [conversos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso)was rampant through the Renaissance era. The Spanish Inquisition wasn’t known for its “live and let live” approach to life. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/152 "2009-12-22T20:42:23Z")
The most interesting thing\* to come out of this thread is the idea that there might be paintings of black people that have been “redone” to represent a more “European appearance”. Any info on whether this might have occurred or not? - To me, at least. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/153 "2009-12-22T20:48:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The most interesting thing\* to come out of this thread is the idea that there might be paintings of black people that have been “redone” to represent a more “European appearance”. Any info on whether this might have occurred or not? > > - To me, at least. I’ve heard that there are some portraits of Martin Luther King, Jr. that have been very consciously lightened. Don’t have examples, though–sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/154 "2009-12-22T20:52:04Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Considering that the US famously doesn’t have royalty, I’m assuming your talking about Europeans? Forgetting your [Emperor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton), are you ? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/155 "2009-12-22T20:54:24Z")
I’m also fascinated by the fact that the OP seems to believe that all European royalty - dozens and dozens of lineages - was suddenly deposed in 1789, instead of just the French branch of the Bourbon family, which itself was restored to the throne 25 years later. The current monarchs of Britain, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal and Monaco are all the direct descendants of the same people who were in power in 1789. The French Revolution was nothing more than a blip. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/156 "2009-12-22T21:01:39Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > This makes no sense. You’re saying white Americans didn’t want to be dominated by black royals. This means that white Americans knew that the royals were (supposedly) black. However, there is no mention of this in any of the revolutionary propaganda at the time. Do you have a cite of some American decrying the European black nobility? Nothing would make the southern colonies rebel against England faster than the claim that the rulers were black. > > Likewise, you say… > > Do you have a cite of any French revolutionary leading the masses with allegations of black nobility? Plus, there is a direct line of descent from the Georges (who must have been black ruling before 1789) and Queen Elizabeth. Perhaps all the TV cameras have a black to white filter? Prince Philip is of Greek royalty, so Charles should be black also. Maybe everyone got white treatments in 1789? As for me, being Jewish, and coming from the same place as Jesus did, and with more tan skin than my more European wife, I must be black also. Pity I wasn’t aware of it so I could have qualified for some affirmative action money or something. I also wonder what this ancient black royalty was doing when the Romans ruled much of Europe. ETA: Alessan beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/157 "2009-12-22T21:32:15Z")
Shit, it looks like [Ivan the Terrible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kremlinpic4.jpg) was actually Native American!!! Who’d a thunk it?! > [@Egmond\_Codfried](#): > > Her niece Mary of Scots was the Black boys great-grandmother and look black of skin. Lovely woman, yet murderous. [Mary, Queen of Scots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_queen_of_scots), was a redhead. Redheads are anything BUT black. (Most have very light, very sensitive skin) > [@](#): > > Portraits of Mary show that she had a small, well-shaped head, a long, graceful neck, bright auburn hair, hazel-brown eyes, under heavy lowered eyelids and finely arched brows, smooth lustrous skin, a high forehead, and regular, firm features. (BTW, what sources did you use for your “books”, and where might one obtain a copy? Do you have a link?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/158 "2009-12-22T21:42:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Plus, there is a direct line of descent from the Georges (who must have been black ruling before 1789) and Queen Elizabeth. Perhaps all the TV cameras have a black to white filter? Prince Philip is of Greek royalty, so Charles should be black also. Maybe everyone got white treatments in 1789? > > As for me, being Jewish, and coming from the same place as Jesus did, and with more tan skin than my more European wife, I must be black also. Pity I wasn’t aware of it so I could have qualified for some affirmative action money or something. > > I also wonder what this ancient black royalty was doing when the Romans ruled much of Europe. > > ETA: Alessan beat me to it. Sorry, I missed this before I posted: **Voyager** – actually, the Greek royal family was Danish/German/Russian. The first King of Greece, [George I](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Greece), was Prince William of Denmark when he was asked to become King of the newly independent Greece. He then married [Grand Duchess Olga Constaninovna of Russia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Constantinovna_of_Russia), and the rest of the family married people from the various little German countries (there were duchies, grand duchies, principalities, kingdoms, you name it!) Their son, [Prince Andrew](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Andrew_of_Greece_and_Denmark), was Phillip’s father. His mother was [Princess Alexandra of Battenberg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Alice_of_Battenberg). And since most of the royal families of Europe are all German by blood, (all that intermarrying into those little countries), he’d be German. So see, GERMANY is black!!! 😛 [sub]God, I LOVE royal history!)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/159 "2009-12-22T21:44:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m also fascinated by the fact that the OP seems to believe that all European royalty - dozens and dozens of lineages - was suddenly deposed in 1789, instead of just the French branch of the Bourbon family, which itself was restored to the throne 25 years later. The current monarchs of Britain, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal and Monaco are all the direct descendants of the same people who were in power in 1789. Don’t you understand? 1789 is when they were all secretly overthrown and [replaced](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke#Global_Elite) by [lizards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilians). Racist lizards. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/160 "2009-12-22T21:45:01Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > [Mary, Queen of Scots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_queen_of_scots), was a redhead. Redheads are anything BUT black. (Most have very light, very sensitive skin) Ginger is the new black. Haven’t you heard? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=9)