# Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194 "2009-12-22T15:21:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/161 "2009-12-22T21:53:09Z")
Forget Norton, once we had the [Heir to the Russian Throne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ilyinsky) as the mayor of Palm Beach. What about that? > [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > Ginger is the new black. Haven’t you heard? I thought cat hair was the new black? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/162 "2009-12-22T21:57:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Shit, it looks like [Ivan the Terrible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kremlinpic4.jpg) was actually Native American!!! Who’d a thunk it? Hmmm, he looks more Jewish to me. The nose, the ears, the beard… more research is needed, but I think we can already infer from this picture that the Russian aristocracy (and by extension, all Slavs) were in reality the lost tribes of Israel. Of course, they were deposed in 1917, and after living for so long under Jewish tyranny it was only natural that antisemitism would be widespread in Soviet Russia… BRB, self-publishing. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/163 "2009-12-22T21:58:46Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The King of Pop used to be black, once. You go too far sir, too far! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/164 "2009-12-22T22:03:24Z")
Awesome thread, 5/5. Do you have a newsletter? As an aside, black people can be redheads. With freckles and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/165 "2009-12-22T22:29:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So see, GERMANY is black!!! 😛 Well, duh! I mentioned the Georges, right? Oh noes - they were actually white, which is why the Revolution happened. Washington, Jefferson, Adams - all black, rebelling against the newly white English king. And slavery? Well, the slaves were actually white, and got painted on the ship. That’s why so many died - pores closed up like in **Goldfinger.** I think I feel a (self published) book coming on. > [@](#): > > God, I LOVE royal history!) Me too. When I was 10 and living in Africa I read this massive history of the English kings and drew up a family tree which I gave to this Brit who lived in an apartment in our villa. I have to get around to reading the rest of Churchill’s **History of the English Speaking People** some day. I read the War of the Roses part after reading Shakespeare so I could tell what actually went on. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/166 "2009-12-22T22:32:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Hmmm, he looks more Jewish to me. The nose, the ears, the beard… more research is needed, but I think we can already infer from this picture that the Russian aristocracy (and by extension, all Slavs) were in reality the lost tribes of Israel. Of course, they were deposed in 1917, and after living for so long under Jewish tyranny it was only natural that antisemitism would be widespread in Soviet Russia… Jewish Indian? [Right here.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsj4s9z-EAE) ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/167 "2009-12-22T22:46:28Z")
Not sure why, but I’m wishing that **Kanicbird** would weigh in here. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > You go too far sir, too far! I’m sure MJ’s complexion has begun to darken once again. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/168 "2009-12-22T23:07:43Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Not sure why, but I’m wishing that **Kanicbird** would weigh in here. > I’m sure MJ’s complexion has begun to darken once again. Meh, I think he embalmed himself enough that it’ll last a good ten years, at least. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/169 "2009-12-22T23:08:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Meh, I think he embalmed himself enough that it’ll last a good ten years, at least. I thought plastic was non-biodegradable? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/170 "2009-12-22T23:40:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m going to tell you something, **Egmond Codfried** - most people think these theories are ridiculously implausible already, but dishing out your arguments in a poorly-written, poorly-punctuated, ungrammatical, and horribly-arranged fashion is only going to hurt your cause and discredit you. > > As to you “Afrocentrists” - stick to celebrating your own heritage. **Stop trying to claim the heritage of others as your own.** > > The Jews were not black, the Greeks were not black, Beethoven was not black, Shakespeare was not black, Jesus was not black and the goddamn Houses of Tudor, Stuart and Hanover were most certainly not black, to say nothing of the Hapsburgs, Hohenzollerns, Guelphs, Medicis, Barberinis, the Valois and Bourbons, and the other illustrious dynasties that ruled over Renaissance and early modern Europe, who were **NOT BLACK!** > > **Stop trying to appropriate _other peoples’ history_**. Oh yeah? How do you explain Jewfros? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/171 "2009-12-22T23:44:19Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Obviously black.](http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/img/King.Henry.VIII.jpg) > > [Another clearly black man.](http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/72/Henry-stuart-darnley.jpg) > > [Black city.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Francis1-1.jpg) > > [Another handsome specimen of African-French blood.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Antoine-de-bourbon.jpg) > > [Quite clearly of African descent.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Erik_XIV_%281533-1577%29_Domenicus_Verwildt.jpg) > > [Yet another African-European.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Charles_V%2C_Holy_Roman_Emperor_by_Tizian.jpg) > > [As black as Shaq.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Michiel_Jansz_van_Mierevelt_-_Maurits_van_Nassau,_prins_van_Oranje_en_Stadhouder.jpg) > > [A handsome bunch of Dutch-Africans.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Four_generations_Princes_of_Orange_-_William_I,_Maurice_and_Frederick_Henry,_William_II,_William_III_(Willem_van_Honthorst,_1662).jpg) > > That’s right. ALL BLACK!!! Yeah, but they’re all albinos, see. Seriously, this guy gets under your skin enough to require extensive link posting? Don’t you see that he’s obviously nuts? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/172 "2009-12-22T23:48:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Racist lizards. Well, that’s what happens when you don’t vote - the wrong lizards get in. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/173 "2009-12-22T23:53:15Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > I’ve heard that there are some portraits of Martin Luther King, Jr. that have been very consciously **lightened.** Don’t have examples, though–sorry! Don’t you mean **en** lightened? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/174 "2009-12-22T23:58:52Z")
The same username and theory appear on the first page of google results, linking to Stormfront. Why are you all still arguing with the OP? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/175 "2009-12-23T00:07:39Z")
We’re not arguing with the OP. We’re mocking him and arguing with each other. Big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/176 "2009-12-23T00:09:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Forget Norton, once we had the [Heir to the Russian Throne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ilyinsky) as the mayor of Palm Beach. What about that? I always liked him. I think Maria is a pill. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/177 "2009-12-23T00:15:27Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Don’t you see that he’s obviously nuts? You may note that he is obviously wrong, but you will not accuse him of being nuts in Great Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/178 "2009-12-23T00:23:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You may note that he is obviously wrong, but you will not accuse him of being nuts in Great Debates. > > [/Moderating] True. Not okay for GD. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/179 "2009-12-23T01:25:18Z")
I think the guy is trying to sell his (self published) books since he doesn’t really offer any cites or proofs. I don’t have enough interest in his theory to “read google” or anything else; if he provided some cites I might be so desperate for entertainment to read a few. Otherwise, he’s got nothin. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194/180 "2009-12-23T03:00:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that’s what happens when you don’t vote - the wrong lizards get in. Chameleons? **LouisB** , I don’t think so. He hasn’t mentioned the names of either book, nor any links of how to obtain them or whatever. If you google the guy, all you get is a bunch of the same stuff he’s spewing here. (Although do NOT click on the first google link you get. I was bombarded by pop-ups so bad I had to shut down firefox. The kind that ask you to download this or that program, and won’t let you take no for an answer. Total malaware site. If you want to read it, click on the “cached” link instead) As for arguing with him, I’d say this is pretty entertaining. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-europe-1500-1789-a-black-civilisation/522194.md?page=10)