First of all regarding T/E ratios, here is a link to another discussion regarding the whole Floyd controversy that has several links to studies showing that T/E ratios can change dramatically within periods of 12 hours. The missed dose of E or mistakenly taking a double dose of T could dramatically alter the T/E ratio on a sample taken after the 17th stage.
With regard to testosterone levels, it is my understanding that if a person is taking synthetic testosterone then their body stops or lowers the production of natural testosterone. The whole synthetic/natural testosterone and epitestosterone dynamics are very complex; however, the “normal” ratio of T/E is 1:1 so the atheletes are getting a generous concession that a 4:1 ratio is required to actually “flunk” the test.
After perusing the msnbc link let me know what you think.
Again, I ask you to please explain how the pharmokinetics of this could possibly work out. Epitestosterone has a very long half life (~ 1 month) compared to testosterone (~6 days). If he forgot to take his testosterone/epitestosterone mix one day then his T/E ratio would actually be abnormally low.
Furthermore, regarding the mass-spec data, I agree that that’s probably a much more reliable test but I think we should wait for quantification of that result.
Again, this is the problem of having a laboratory leak results. It isn’t professional and it’s considered unethical for just these reasons.
Just like the T/E ratio, it depends on the analysis of a ratio between the amount of carbon 12 and the amount of carbon 13 in a sample. Presumably even a small difference in this test should be reliable, but we really ought to see the data first. What’s the t-score of Landis’s result?
All we have right now is the New York Times saying, “someone who oughta know says it’s a positive!” and others parroting. Can you direct me to any quantification of the mass-spec test results?
I’ll try to find the time to read your MSNBC link, but I want to make it clear that nobody from Floyd’s team has suggested any sample tampering. This NY Times article explains it pretty well. Basically, the lab has been engaging in leaks and other unprofessional behavior and they do indeed seem to be, “on the offensive,” more than the actual testing lab ought to be, but no one is seriously accusing them of having planted stuff in samples or what not.
"Still, Henson said, Landis is not making any claims that his urine samples were tampered with at the French national antidoping lab, where the tests were done. “He is not going to embark on any conspiracy theories,” Henson said.
During his round of interviews yesterday, Landis accused the International Cycling Union and the drug testers at the French lab of having what he said was “an agenda.” He said the cycling union was corrupt, and he criticized it for revealing the test results from the A sample before the B sample was tested, which he said was a breach of the cycling union’s own rules."
I think they should quit testing. It is well known that the tour is a playground for the latest performance enhancing drugs. The chemists just keep searching for new drugs and masking techniques. Some get away with it ,some do not. Blood doping steroids etc. It won’t stop.
It wastes a lot of time and money.
Whole teams have been besmirched by the trainers getting caught with the drugs. It will not stop.Actually if the drugs were allowed it would be facinating to see how far an enhanced human could go.
To the grave? Is it just steroids that lave long lived, deleterious effects on the person’s health or would these too? Didn’t I hear that several bicyclists have died from the blood thickening procedure they use to enhance oxygen saturation (or whatever it does)?
You have the right to decide what they take or do they. Testing for steroids would ruin football and pro wrestling.
Afriend of mine played football at a major big 10 school. No body told him to take steroids. But when people he played against in high school had gained 35 lbs and gotten faster ,he had to choose. He figured if he did it til he got through school it would not be too dngerous. An injury ended his career. But no one in school told him too. The atmosphere surely directed him that way.Eberybody knew but bthere ws no official position telling him to.
I would agree that Floyd’s team seems to be leaning away from the tampering/sabotage theory; however, the issue regarding leaked results, etc, is just a smokescreen. If Landis says there is no tampering/sabotage then the positive A and B T/E and carbon isotope test results are an accurate picture at a point in time and Floyd is guilty. BTW, the msnbc link also has further links attributing accuracy and irrefutability to the carbon isotope testing. While the difference between C-12 & C-13 is small the ability to ascertain synthetic versus natural has seemingly passed the test of time.
Seems like one way to crack this nut would be to do some radiometric measurements on the testosterone in his other samples. If they show up tainted, then it probably just means his doctors didn’t get the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio right when they doped him up before stage 17. A negative reading wouldn’t clear him, but a positive one would close the case.
I agree 100% and wonder who has the authority, other than Landis, to request that the other samples be subjected to carbon isotope screening. I don’t see Landis or anyone in his camp making this request, therefore, I have to assume that he already knows the outcome and it won’t help him.
Also, can anyone explain the difference between testosterone levels and ratios performed on urine samples versus blood samples. It has been reported that several of the samples collected from Landis during the TDF were blood samples. Also, what other tests can be performed on the blood that can’t be performed on the urine samples, etc.? Any light on the subject would be appreciated.
In regards to previous threads regarding Landis’s claim of there being an “agenda” - I can once again only reiterate that this is a smokescreen. Even if the lab or another part of the chain of command is found guilty of having stepped outside the boundaries of reporting test results, it will still not have any effect on the test result itself. Landis will most likely never ride on the pro tour again (given the required four year ban) since he would be 34 by the time he could return.
Some 4 years later, this thread is proof positive that sometimes in life, we simply just don’t want to believe that our worst fears are true.
Looking back, what I found so incredibly exasperating at the time, is that some Americans on this messageboard were hair trigger happy to point out any number of athletes doing doping from overseas over the years, but they simply could NOT accept that in Floyd Landis, they had an American who was guilty of it too.
And worst of all, Landis preyed on that. He milked that for all it was worth. Given what we know now, given his belated admission overnight that he knew he was guilty all along, that he’d been doping all along, it just makes his sins AFTER getting busted even worse.
The books. The accusations of corruption towards innocent people doing good work. His donation fund in which he took in almost a million dollars to fight a legal defense based entirely on perjury. It was deplorable.
And I simply can’t condone the Americans here who, at the time, defended Landis with blind unswerving devotion in the face of overwhelming logic.
Of all the reasons I stopped coming to the Straight Dope Message Board, the Floyd Landis case was it.
I’ve been redeemed, and I’ve come to gloat. Not very admirable, I’ll admit. But it feels fucking good. Any of those who know my background in the sport of cycling would understand why…
Wow, it’s been awhile. I saw the thread title and my first thought was "Why did someone start a thread asking whether that guy who got stuck in a Kentucky cave in the 1920s was “framed”?
Then I remembered who Floyd Landis was, but was still surprised to see that the first person to respond in this aged thread was me.
Obligatory link to story about Floyd admitting his performance-enhancing drug use.
You left because two people were not convinced that Landis was guilty and debated that with a bunch of other people who were pretty sure he was and that the claims of his being framed were BS? You couldn’t “condone” that some minority believed him?
And you resurrect a four year old thread to gloat that those two people were wrong in their presuming Landis was innocent even though others had pretty well argued effectively against them at the time?
You know something? I was almost about to hand over the $30 to get those words Charter Member under my name again. I read the blurb, apparently the administrators need the assistance. I notice you, yourself DSeid, haven’t paid your subscription, and yet you’re happy to speak on behalf of others as though you’re the Wizard of Oz. Can you see the irony?
You’re right, I don’t belong here… and the SMDB won’t be getting that $30 after all…
You’re obviously unaware of the many concurrent threads about Landis at the time. If you weren’t, you’d know just how passionately I was posting about Landis at the time, and in particular, how I felt towards my fellow posters who were defending Landis at any cost, against all reason.
This is a thread which I “thought” I was most active in, and I was mistaken, when in fact it was another thread which I’ve also brought back from the dead.
Clearly, dragging up 6 or 7 threads from the dead is inappropriate. I chose two.
Currently, the other one is having the more informed debate about Landis, whereas this one is getting personal. No big deal.
If you knew just how much I used to post here in the Tour de France threads back in the day, if you knew my background in the sport, there’s no way you’d be saying I’m just Monday morning quarterbacking.
Okay, I stand corrected. I’m didn’t follow the story in 2006 and I’m only going by what’s in this thread. It probably would have been better to start a new thread and link to the old ones instead of creating two zombies, though.
