# Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355 "2005-03-07T13:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/1 "2005-03-07T13:45:48Z")
Acccording to: > **[Italian hostage accuses US of trying to kill her as thousands mourn her rescuer](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2005/mar/07/pressandpublishing.usnews)** > > The former Italian hostage who saw her rescuer shot dead at a US checkpoint in Baghdad said yesterday they may have been targeted because of US objections to Italy's policy of negotiating with kidnappers. "The former Italian hostage who saw her rescuer shot dead at a US checkpoint in Baghdad said yesterday they might have been targeted because of US objections to Italy’s policy of negotiating with kidnappers. … "In her account, Sgrena said she recalled her captors’ last words: “Be careful because the Americans don’t want you to return.” The Italian government has virtually admitted a ransom was paid, with the agriculture minister in Silvio Berlusconi’s rightwing government, Giovanni Alemanno, saying it was “very likely”. He added it was “generally preferable to pay a financial price than the price of a human life or a political price consisting of [submitting to] blackmail by pulling out troops”. An Iraqi MP told Belgian state television on Saturday that a $1m (£520,000) ransom was paid. But Italian media reports spoke of a payment of up to $8m. In an interview broadcast by Sky Italia, Sgrena said: “The United States does not approve of this policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible.” … The US military said the car approached the checkpoint on Friday night at speed and soldiers used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and warning shots to try to get it to stop. However, according to the daily Corriere della Sera, the Italian intelligence officer who drove the car and who survived the attack insisted they were travelling at just 40 to 50 kilometres an hour (25 to 30 mph). He was quoted as saying: “All of a sudden, a searchlight went on. Immediately afterwards, the shots began. The fire lasted for at least 10 seconds.” The team that fetched Sgrena had been in direct contact by telephone with the prime minister’s office in Rome, where Mr Berlusconi, senior intelligence officers and the editor of Sgrena’s newspaper were all celebrating her release with champagne. Corriere della Sera said that, after screaming at the Americans to stop, the intelligence officer called up again. “The Americans have shot at us,” he shouted. “Nicola is dead. I have a machine gun pointing at me.” " Is this believable- would US Special Forces have been detailed to execute the hostage and her negotiator because of a difference of policy over ransoms? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/2 "2005-03-07T13:50:23Z")
Highly unlikely. Just another one of those hypothetical schemes with too many people involved for it to be kept secret for long. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/3 "2005-03-07T13:51:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Acccording to: > > [Italian hostage accuses US of trying to kill her as thousands mourn her rescuer | Media | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1432041,00.html) > > Is this believable- would US Special Forces have been detailed to execute the hostage and her negotiator because of a difference of policy over ransoms? If they had, she’d be dead right now, methinks. Say what you will about the checkpoint system, and possible failures in this incident, but a grand conspiricy to execute a no-name journalist is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/4 "2005-03-07T13:54:03Z")
Believable but not probable i’d say. The same old ‘better a hundred innocents die than one soldier put at risk’ policy that is so winning hearts and minds except this time it wasn’t just those freedom hating Iraqi’s that suffered. Note that by this point in their journey they had already passed safely through several American checkpoints and after the incident were held for an hour, wounded in their car, without medical aid. Savages. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/5 "2005-03-07T14:00:43Z")
If I understand the facts correctly _only one bullet_ was fired into the car. It killed the man, then fragments of it wounded the journalist/hostage. If they wanted her dead, the why not shred the car with lots and lots of bullets? The car wasn’t stopping at the checkpoint and was going to fast. They ordered it to stop. When it didn’t, they shot the engine. When it still came at them they shot one round into the passenger compartment. Once the vehicle stopped moving, they stopped further shooting. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong. * * * On the other hand, the Italian government giving 10 million dollars to the terrorists to resque this communist, anti-american terrorist sypathizer is an extremely poor choice. All Italian civilians and soldiers in Iraq are put at risk by this foolish decision. They have a huge target on thier backs now that the terrorists know their government will reward them to the tune of 10 million for a successful kidnapping! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/6 "2005-03-07T14:05:54Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If I understand the facts correctly _only one bullet_ was fired into the car. Do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/7 "2005-03-07T14:06:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If I understand the facts correctly _only one bullet_ was fired into the car. It killed the man, then fragments of it wounded the journalist/hostage. If they wanted her dead, the why not shred the car with lots and lots of bullets? > > The car wasn’t stopping at the checkpoint and was going to fast. They ordered it to stop. When it didn’t, they shot the engine. When it still came at them they shot one round into the passenger compartment. Once the vehicle stopped moving, they stopped further shooting. > > Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong. > > * * * > > On the other hand, the Italian government giving 10 million dollars to the terrorists to resque this communist, anti-american terrorist sypathizer is an extremely poor choice. All Italian civilians and soldiers in Iraq are put at risk by this foolish decision. They have a huge target on thier backs now that the terrorists know their government will reward them to the tune of 10 million for a successful kidnapping! The Italians deny in detail the American account. And hundreds of rounds were fired. Care to actually inform yourself about the incident before going into apologist mode? by[Italy angered by etc](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569) > [@](#): > > They passed two American checkpoints along the airport road without incident and were 700 metres or so from the airport building. The road narrowed to a single, one-way lane and took a 90-degree turn. The car was going slowly now, approaching the end of the journey. > > “At last I felt safe,” Ms Sgrena said. “We had nearly arrived in an area under American control, an area more or less friendly, even if it was still unsettled.” > > Then, turning the corner, they found their progress baulked by an American tank. They were blinded by a powerful light. “Without any warning, any signal, we were bombarded with a shower of bullets,” Ms Sgrena said. “The tank was firing on us, our car was riddled with bullets. Nicola tried to protect me, then his body slumped on top of mine, I heard his death rattle, then I felt a pain but I couldn’t tell where I had been hit. Those who had fired came up to the car, but before I was taken to the American hospital there was an interminable wait, it’s hard to know how long I was lying there wounded but perhaps it was 20 minutes.” > [@](#): > > CONFLICTING VERSIONS > > There are some glaring discrepancies in the Italian and American versions of the killing of the agent Nicola Calipari and the wounding of released hostage Giuliana Sgrena and two other Italian secret service agents: > > The Americans say: the car was travelling at high speed > The Italians say: it was travelling at 40-50kph > > US: It approached a checkpoint near the airport at speed when soldiers fired on it to force it to stop as a “last resort” > Italy: It had passed three checkpoints without incident and was 700 metres from the airport when fired upon > > US: The soldiers used hand signals and bright lights and fired warning shots before hitting the car with shots > Italy: There was no warning. Three to four hundred rounds were fired, afterwards the car seats were covered in spent cartridges. The Americans forced the Italians to remain in the car without medical attention for an hour > > US: There was a lack of co-ordination between the Italians and the Americans > Italy: The Americans were kept fully informed > > US: It was a regrettable accident which will be aggressively investigated > Italy: Ms Sgrena claims it was a deliberate ambush to kill her, as the Italians had paid a ransom, a practice America opposes, and as she had learnt inconvenient facts from her abductors. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/8 "2005-03-07T14:09:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > On the other hand, the Italian government giving 10 million dollars to the terrorists to resque this communist, anti-american terrorist sypathizer is an extremely poor choice. I don’t know if she is or is not any of things, but I’ll point out that there’s no law against being a Communist, nor is there anything wrong with a non-American national being “anti-American”. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/9 "2005-03-07T14:16:04Z")
If hundreds of rounds were fired, she’d be dead. She’s already admitted the car was speeding > [@](#): > > The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/10 "2005-03-07T14:16:35Z")
It defies logic to believe that a hit was ordered on this ‘journalist’, and then, for whatever magical reason, they didn’t shoot her, just the intelligence officer. Why didn’t they just finish her off? Besides, as long as stupid theories are being entertained in this thread, why not rig a roadside bomb or something, since our fell assassin-minions seemed to have known what road she would be on and what car she would be in? That said, I bet $10.00 that the hard left will be grimly recalling the ‘attempted assassination of whatshername’ for weeks to come. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/11 "2005-03-07T14:18:00Z")
Actually after watching this [Frontline Report](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/company/view/) which at one point shows a shooting at a checkpoint I can easily reconcile the conflicting accounts in my own mind. I was really taken aback by it. The whole thing happened very quickly and I’m sure seemed to any passenger in the vehicle like they were fired on out of nowhere. It wasn’t like signal (long pause) warning shot (long pause) direct shot. It was more like signal, warning, direct all run together - and I remember thinking God you had to have fast reflexes to survive a checkpoint. At least that’s how it seemed to me (I only watched it the one time - you can check if you want exactly how it went - also the end happens off-camera but you can hear how fast it goes) - but even if I got it wrong that shows how a witness might easily get confused and think this was an assassination attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/12 "2005-03-07T14:19:03Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If I understand the facts correctly _only one bullet_ was fired into the car. It killed the man, then fragments of it wounded the journalist/hostage. If they wanted her dead, the why not shred the car with lots and lots of bullets? > > The car wasn’t stopping at the checkpoint and was going to fast. They ordered it to stop. When it didn’t, they shot the engine. When it still came at them they shot one round into the passenger compartment. Once the vehicle stopped moving, they stopped further shooting. > > Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong. > > * * * > > On the other hand, the Italian government giving 10 million dollars to the terrorists to resque this communist, anti-american terrorist sypathizer is an extremely poor choice. All Italian civilians and soldiers in Iraq are put at risk by this foolish decision. They have a huge target on thier backs now that the terrorists know their government will reward them to the tune of 10 million for a successful kidnapping! As quoted in the OP: "However, according to the daily Corriere della Sera, the Italian intelligence officer who drove the car and who survived the attack insisted they were travelling at just 40 to 50 kilometres an hour (25 to 30 mph). He was quoted as saying: “All of a sudden, a searchlight went on. Immediately afterwards, the shots began. The fire lasted for at least 10 seconds.” " So, they say they were going at 25-30mph and ten seconds of shooting occurred. What is your source? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/13 "2005-03-07T14:20:49Z")
> [@zuma](#): > > If hundreds of rounds were fired, she’d be dead. She’s already admitted the car was speeding > > [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html) Nothing about speeding there. Care to try again? I know - perhaps one of them had a beard? ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/14 "2005-03-07T14:21:07Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > I don’t know if she is or is not any of things, but I’ll point out that there’s no law against being a Communist, nor is there anything wrong with a non-American national being “anti-American”. Nor is there anything wrong with a speeding car coming at you, in a war zone where foreign terrorists try to take out any Americans or Iraqis they can, firing warning lights and waving your arms, firing warning shots, and finally firing into the vehicle. It is regrettable, but it is in no way intentional, or for the conspiritorially minded, deliberate (failed) murder. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/15 "2005-03-07T14:24:46Z")
> [@zuma](#): > > If hundreds of rounds were fired, she’d be dead. She’s already admitted the car was speeding > > [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html) According to that report cited by you she says that they had been trvaling fast but according to the report I cited she said they were traveling at 25-30mph as they approached the shooting. Both reports are compatible with each other as they refer to different times. And wher did the figure of hundreds of bullets come from? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/16 "2005-03-07T14:25:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So, they say they were going at 25-30mph and ten seconds of shooting occurred. What is your source? The firm and unshakeable belief that no matter what the circumstances; weddings, Canadians on training, rescued hostages, shooting wounded prisoners, torturing captives etc US soldiers can do no wrong, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/17 "2005-03-07T14:26:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And wher did the figure of hundreds of bullets come from? The Independent article I linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/18 "2005-03-07T14:27:35Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > I don’t know if she is or is not any of things, but I’ll point out that there’s no law against being a Communist, nor is there anything wrong with a non-American national being “anti-American”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/19 "2005-03-07T14:27:37Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Nothing about speeding there. Care to try again? I know - perhaps one of them had a beard? If you are worried about losing control because of “puddles” you are travelling at a high rate of speed. Try again yourself. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/20 "2005-03-07T14:27:55Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The firm and unshakeable belief that no matter what the circumstances; weddings, Canadians on training, rescued hostages, shooting wounded prisoners, torturing captives etc US soldiers can do no wrong, by definition. Ooops - reply to a different question. Sorry. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=2)