# Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355 "2005-03-07T13:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/221 "2005-03-13T16:09:16Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …As to what **Tigers** has been posting about: Is it relevant to this ‘accident’ that Sgrena is a communist, who has written articles critical of US policy,… Once again ---- Not once do you cite anything specific in ANY of my posts in regards to your blurry criticisms. And despite my continuing requests that you do so. It now appears that you either will not provide a simple cite or more likely, can’t. The fact that you continue to take this line speaks for itself. Instead you rely on more of your vague, indefinite, ad hominim. All totally devoid of meaning. All because you staunchly refuse to provide specific examples. So I dare ask once again – **annaplurabelle** give me an example of where I indicated ANYWHERE that _“it is relevant to this ‘accident’ that Sgrena is a communist”_. Give me a specific example where I have indicated ANYWHERE that it is relevant that Sgrena _“has written articles critical of US policy”_. > [@](#): > > …or that the Italians most likely paid a ransom for her release? Now this part may indeed be relevant to this issue. Why? The consensus among Italy’s allies appears to be that paying for the release of kidnapped citizens is wrong— and, in fact, Italy had been receiving criticism from her allies as a result of this behavior. In fact, the Italian government has to this day not ‘officially’ acknowledged that they were paying millions of dollars to terrorists to gain release of hostages. Why? Because of the allies position against this behavior. As a consequence, there is a desire to keep this information as secret as possible – especially while to process in on-going to avoid any allied resistance. Hence, the need for secrecy and the lack of communication. This may very well have lead to part of the confusion leading to this incident. That is why US personnel were not provided information regarding Calipari’s mission – only that he was in the country. That is probably why the US and allies were not given notice of Sgrena’s pending release – I suspect for fear that the US and other allies would disapprove of the ransom. So – the real possibility that the ransom might be relevant to this issue — that is, maybe it was an unfortunate accident and not a planned assassination — as already suggested in prior posts. > [@](#): > > So what is the point of you and Tigers trying to smear Sgrena? Is this one of your ‘when did you stop beating your wife’ efforts? Look at the OP’s topic title annaplurbelle – it runs along the lines of ‘did US personnel murder Calipari.’ Now notice the connection between Sgrenas allegations regarding US personnel’s ‘intent to kill’ and that connection with the OP title. Recall that Sgrena has made direct allegations that US personnel were attempting a murder. So ---- I suspect Sgrena’s credibility is at issue — and not just because of these two factors alone – but that is certainly enough. It appears either that you’ve failed to see this rather simple connection annaplurabelle or that you don’t want Sgrena’s credibility discussed. If the later — I ask you why? Oh, and in the spirit of your ‘wife beating question’ — What is the point **annapluabelle** of your trying to smear US personnel? Why?? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/222 "2005-03-13T16:55:15Z")
Another wrinkle - something I hadn’t heard before. The Italians indicate they were swerving around cement blocks when their car was fired apon. [quote] … **The Italians say the car was swerving around cement blocks in the road** when a bright light went on and, with no warning, the car was pummeled with automatic weapons fire for 10 to 15 seconds. U.S. military officials say troops made hand and arm signals, flashed white lights and fired warning shots to no avail. [http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uswit13,0,6822979.story?coll=ny-nation-big-pix](http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uswit13,0,6822979.story?coll=ny-nation-big-pix) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/223 "2005-03-13T21:16:03Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > I never said the driver ‘demonstrated’ bad judgement. This, and the bit about ‘the lead agent ordering a run past the checkpoint’, is completely your own speculation.T Shit yeah , I had already ansewered Ale , when I noticed down stream that you had also ansewered him , with something to do with calipari’s driver being a local asset , not a rome special, that I had assumed. So anyone still wondering , I said that , not Annaplurabelle Declan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/224 "2005-03-14T03:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=Tigers2B1] Another wrinkle - something I hadn’t heard before. The Italians indicate they were swerving around cement blocks when their car was fired apon. > [@](#): > > … **The Italians say the car was swerving around cement blocks in the road** when a bright light went on and, with no warning, the car was pummeled with automatic weapons fire for 10 to 15 seconds. U.S. military officials say troops made hand and arm signals, flashed white lights and fired warning shots to no avail. > > [http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uswit13,0,6822979.story?coll=ny-nation-big-pix](http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uswit13,0,6822979.story?coll=ny-nation-big-pix) That coincides with Pjen’s quote in post #40: "They passed two American checkpoints along the airport road without incident and were 700 metres or so from the airport building. The road narrowed to a single, one-way lane and took a 90-degree turn. The car was going slowly now, approaching the end of the journey. I’ve seen roads narrow down to one lane with right angle barriers, usually at military bases. The Italians are describing check points. It’s speculation at this point but if the driver ignored the nature of the checkpoint and accelerated with even a modest amount of gas out of a corner he would have appeard to be charging the soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/225 "2005-03-14T06:43:07Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Your point? Either there are alternate roads or not. I am asking. Obviously you have no idea. There you go again. No, you asked “Does that mean there is a ‘certain death road’ for ‘unimportant’ people?”, and followed it with “Kinda sad, isn’t it?”, What’s sad is your pathetic attempts to make your rhetorical questions to seem innocent or sincere. > [@](#): > > You can’t ‘ignore’ an _eyewitness_ because you dislike her politics. And again, either there is an alternate road or not. Surely this _fact_ can be ascertained regardless of politics. Who gives a crap about her politics besides you. You can ‘ignore’ an eyewitness when she has already made many domonstrably outrageous claims that she keeps having to correct when people call her on them. > [@](#): > > BTW, one quote from a minister does not constitute ‘The Italians’. Very well, as long as you quit describing 3 Italian nationals as “an allied nation” or “the Italians, who are, after all, allies of the US.” > [@](#): > > What you don’t know about Italian politics, and/or the mindset of ‘The Italians’ is a lot. I’m sorry, have we ever met? > [@](#): > > You are obviously just spreading US right-wing talking points here. Again I would ask you why you feel the need to smear an ally? Apparently, what you don’t know about who the subject we are debating about is alot. > [@](#): > > Is it a preemptive smear because you know she has info about Falluja and/or abuses to Iraqi citizens? 😕 What are you smoking? Are you refering to the secret info where she reported the US used napalm in fallujah and nuclear weapons in taking the airport? Other than that, my mind can’t decipher what other schemes deluded minds create. Mayhap you have an advantage on me and would like to share? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/226 "2005-03-14T06:54:55Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > **annaplurabelle** give me an example of where I indicated ANYWHERE that _“it is relevant to this ‘accident’ that Sgrena is a communist”_. Give me a specific example where I have indicated ANYWHERE that it is relevant that Sgrena _“has written articles critical of US policy”_. My mistake - I should have said **Tigers** _and others_, since it was **Debaser** who brought up ‘communist’ back on page one. As for the ransom… > [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Now this part may indeed be relevant to this issue. Why? The consensus among Italy’s allies appears to be that paying for the release of kidnapped citizens is wrong— and, in fact, Italy had been receiving criticism from her allies as a result of this behavior. In fact, the Italian government has to this day not ‘officially’ acknowledged that they were paying millions of dollars to terrorists to gain release of hostages. Why? Because of the allies position against this behavior. As a consequence, there is a desire to keep this information as secret as possible – especially while to process in on-going to avoid any allied resistance. Hence, the need for secrecy and the lack of communication. This may very well have lead to part of the confusion leading to this incident. That is why US personnel were not provided information regarding Calipari’s mission – only that he was in the country. That is probably why the US and allies were not given notice of Sgrena’s pending release – I suspect for fear that the US and other allies would disapprove of the ransom. So – the real possibility that the ransom might be relevant to this issue — that is, maybe it was an unfortunate accident and not a planned assassination — as already suggested in prior posts. So at last you admit you consider it relevant. But you feign outrage if it is also considered a possible motive. Can’t have it both ways. Do you really believe the US had no knowledge of Calipari’s activities that day??? From [Newsday](http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-bittersweet-rescue,0,7270390.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines): > [@](#): > > Premier Silvio Berlusconi has told lawmakers that **Calipari sent word of their approach to an Italian liaison officer waiting at Baghdad airport along with an American officer.** > > As the car proceeds with interior lights turned on, Calipari makes phone calls, including to Gianni Letta, Berlusconi’s right-hand man, and to an Italian general. **He also makes several calls with the intention of notifying the Americans that his party is nearing the airport and seeking “every possible assistance for an easy and direct entry,”** Fini says. Calipari also received clearance to travel the Green Zone and the road to the airport _when he first arrived_. What difference would it make if it was unknown that Sgrena was in the car? The US knew about Calipari and the driver. Also, remember my cite above from Gustavo Selva: > [@](#): > > Selva claimed that the attack on the Toyota Corolla carrying Sgrena and Nicola Calipari, the intelligence officer, to Baghdad airport had been prompted by a satellite monitoring system. This detected that their vehicle did not have clearance from US military authorities. A signal alerted a mobile checkpoint near the airport and its soldiers opened fire. Here is a second opinion from a [former US Air Force Intelligence officer](http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10315): > [@](#): > > The top U.S. general in Iraq, Army gen. George Casey, has stated that the US had no indication that Italian officials gave advance notice of the route of the vehicle in which Giuliana Sgrena and slain officer Nicola Calipari were riding. **As a former Air Force intelligence officer, I would argue that this statement is absolutely ludicrous.** > > **Based upon intelligence collection capabilities of even 3 decades ago, it is reasonable to assume that the US intercepted all phone communication between Italian agents in Iraq and Rome, monitored such traffic in real time and knew precisely where Sgrena’s vehicle was at all times, without advanced notice being provided by Italian officials.** > > **It is inconceivable to me that the US would not be monitoring all conversations between Italian agents and Rome, particularly cell phone conversations in a hostile environment where cell phone communications are used to trigger explosives.** > > Are we to believe that in an area near the airport, an area that is intensely hostile according to the US, that they would not be monitoring cell phone signals? **Even if such conversations were electronically “scrambled,” the position of such signals would be of enormous intelligence value.** > [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Look at the OP’s topic title annaplurbelle – it runs along the lines of ‘did US personnel murder Calipari.’ Now notice the connection between Sgrenas allegations regarding US personnel’s ‘intent to kill’ and that connection with the OP title. Recall that Sgrena has made direct allegations that US personnel were attempting a murder. So ---- I suspect Sgrena’s credibility is at issue — and not just because of these two factors alone – but that is certainly enough. It appears either that you’ve failed to see this rather simple connection annaplurabelle or that you don’t want Sgrena’s credibility discussed. If the later — I ask you why? Her credibility is at issue because she was attacked, and _wouldn’t rule out the possibility_ that it was an intentional hit??? And someone here started a thread about it??? These are the 2 factors that are _enough_? Are you serious??? BTW, what are the ‘other reasons’, since you’ve finally admitted to questioning her credibility? What if I had info about the soldiers at that checkpoint, that might put their credibility at issue? Would you consider disclosing it here fair or a smear tactic? Think about it and get back to me, because the info is available. Just say the word. As for Negroponte - do you really think a LIHOP is beneath him? > [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve seen roads narrow down to one lane with right angle barriers, usually at military bases. The Italians are describing check points. It’s speculation at this point but if the driver ignored the nature of the checkpoint and accelerated with even a modest amount of gas out of a corner he would have appeard to be charging the soldiers. From the Newsday article: > [@](#): > > Fini says photos of the vehicle show the shots “reached the right side of the car,” where both windows are shattered and bullet holes are visible. > > **RAI TV shows photos of the car, saying there’s no evidence of bullet holes in the engine block.** Sgrena says the fire was coming from **"the right-hand side and from behind."** > > “It’s not true that they shot into the engine,” she says. The physical evidence isn’t consistent with trying to stop a car that is _approaching_, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/227 "2005-03-14T15:14:20Z")
**annaplurbelle** , I see that yet once again you’ve decided NOT to support your assertions regarding positions you decide you will ascribe to me. Yet, you continue to do this on a continuing basis. It seems you have a burning desire to create positions for other posters. I suggest you get over that. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > My mistake - I should have said **Tigers** _and others_, since it was **Debaser** who brought up ‘communist’ back on page one. No **annaplurabelle** - you shouldn’t have said “Tigers and others” —if it is Debaser you’re really discussing, you should have said Debaser. Is this too difficult for you? Shees - > [@](#): > > So at last you admit you consider it relevant. Again -------- I don’t ‘admit it’s relevant’ as you’ve decided to phrase this – I acknowledge the possibility — notice the gap between the word ‘may’ be relevant AND the words you’ve decided to attribute to me – that it _‘at last you admit you concider it relevant.’_ See the difference? Stuff like this seems to be your meal ticket doesn’t it? — Oh, and what’s the _“…at last…”_ stuff — I’ve considered the possibility that the ransom played a role in the miscommnication or lack of communication between US personnel and the Italians way before this last post. Again ------- you attempt to assign a position not held. > [@](#): > > …But you feign outrage if it is also considered a possible motive. Can’t have it both ways. There’s no “feigned outrage” – your hypotheticals are so ridiculous, so contrary to common sense, that there is nothing ‘feigned’ on my part — but whatever the emotion is, and I think it’s new to me, it isn’t ‘outrage.’ More of a _‘God, how can anyone be so lacking ordinary thinking skills’_ - > [@](#): > > Do you really believe the US had no knowledge of Calipari’s activities that day??? Yep – at this point I believe the US had no knowledge of Calipari’s activities that day because that’s what the Italians said - and that’s what the US say. The stuff you cite were alleged calls made _after_ the negotiations for the ransom, _after_ the ransom was paid, _after_ Sgrena’s release, and as they were approaching the airport. That doesn’t give one knowledge of Calipari’s activities. That is, providing notice of an ‘approach to the airport’ hardly equates with “knowledge of Calipari’s activities” as you’ve phrased this. So why don’t you actually quote something that supports what you assert next time ---- surprise me - ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/228 "2005-03-14T15:23:27Z")
It seems that Sgrena has backtracked on her assassination story. Well, not “backtracked” – sort of totally reversed. I assume this is because it wasn’t working in the field as well as hoped. Strategically the change is a good move – if truth isn’t a concern. So stay tuned. Oh, and at the linked site you’ll see that she states that _“We were in an area monitored by American troops, close to the airport. Obviously Iraqi guerrillas couldn’t get there …”_ Wonder how she knows this with the certainity she uses? Than, and I add this as a gratuity, she states that ‘even if’ the car was full of “guerillas” - the US still would not be justified in firing. WTF? > [@](#): > > …To this regard, she [Sgrena] further added, "I don’t know whether (the US soldiers) did it on purpose. I just think their behaviour was unacceptable. Then adds this treasure – > [@](#): > > **…Americans shoot at cars, for no reason. This time, though, they had no excuses.** The entire article is here - [http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200503112037-1274-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia](http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200503112037-1274-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia) ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/229 "2005-03-14T21:28:48Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Oh, and at the linked site you’ll see that she states that _“We were in an area monitored by American troops, close to the airport. Obviously Iraqi guerrillas couldn’t get there …”_ Wonder how she knows this with the certainity she uses? [From this interview](http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/03_Marzo/11/sgrena.shtml): > [@](#): > > _Did you manage to work out where you were?_ > > “Yes, because I recognised the road. It was the alternative route to the airport, that one that as far as I know goes through the American-controlled green zone and avoids residential areas. **It’s a road I’d already travelled several times** ”. > [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Then adds this treasure – > > > [@](#): > > > > **…Americans shoot at cars, for no reason. This time, though, they had no excuses.** You left out the rest of it: > [@](#): > > **They should have known we were riding.** That’s why I demand answers. **I’d like to know why the US tank was not informed we were passing through.** We didn’t even notice it", she concluded. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/230 "2005-03-15T00:37:08Z")
An unfortunate accident? [Cite](http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/21452/): > [@](#): > > \*\* > “There’s no coordination in Iraq between the various national contingents,”\*\* says Gianni Perrelli, L’espresso special envoy to Iraq. “Except for the British, who are able to really control their territory, the other national contingents live confined to their barracks.” Perrelli says he has **"sensed that there’s no longer an established channel of communication between the coalition countries and the U.S. occupation army."** Or a ‘LIHOP’: > [@](#): > > But some, including Sgrena, are theorizing that the attack on her convoy may have been deliberate, part of a larger strategy directed at preventing foreign countries from negotiating with insurgents to free their kidnapped nationals. > > **Sgrena says the Italians had informed their American counterparts that the operation was under way and that the convoy had already passed all the American checkpoints when it came under fire, without any warning. She says the convoy was proceeding at a regular speed, not at high speed as the United States claims.** > > “_In light of all the discrepancies I cannot exclude the possibility_ that I may have been targeted,” Sgrena told Italian wire agencies in the hours following her return to Italy. > > **"It is not a mystery that the Americans do not like people to negotiate with insurgents, and that they do whatever they can to discourage it,"** Sgrena said. “Also, my captors had warned us to be weary of the Americans. ‘Be careful,’ they said, ‘the Americans want you dead.’ In light of what has happened it is difficult to not believe that this may have been their goal.” My emphasis. > [@](#): > > Sgrena’s ordeal, however, has given new meaning to a controversial episode at the last World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. During one of the sessions, Eason Jordan, chief of international news for CNN, said he believed that the Defense Department was deliberately targeting journalists in Iraq, and that he knew of **at the least 12 journalists who had been targeted and later killed by the U.S. military there**. Jordan had to retract his statement and later resigned from CNN. > > The Committee to Protect Journalists, a New York-based advocacy group, has placed Iraq on top of its list of the most dangerous places for journalists. \*\*So far, said a committee report, 37 journalists and 18 media personnel have been killed in Iraq, the greatest number of any single conflict since the Vietnam War. Typically, the committee notes, journalists’ deaths in wartime are targeted killings. “The deliberate use of overwhelming force in the Al Jazeera case,” says committee spokesperson Joel Campania, referring to the bombing attack on the Arab television station’s headquarters in Baghdad that killed one journalist, “was never explained by U.S. forces.” Sad that **Tigers** \*\* seems to be channelling _Ann Coulter_, and cannot provide a coherent rebuttal to my cites re: The ‘alternate’ road to the airport, US satellite/intel capabilities, and why Sgrena herself is on trial here. Sgrena wasn’t driving the car. She didn’t fire on US forces. She didn’t kill a US national. Care to explain why her ‘credibility’ is at issue here? At this point, I believe Sgrena is a red herring. \*\* I’d like to know:\*\* Were the weapons fired at the checkpoint confiscated for ballistics tests? If not, why not? Why wasn’t the car released to Italian authorities, as originally promised? Will Negroponte and Gen Casey be required to testify under oath as to their knowledge of this incident? If not, why not? Was anyone _not part of the US 3rd Division_ present at the checkpoint? If these questions go unanswered, the ‘investigation’ is nothing but a farce. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/231 "2005-03-15T00:55:24Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …Were the weapons fired at the checkpoint confiscated for ballistics tests? Not that the rest of your, uhm, ‘insightful debate’ is any less goofy, but what do you think would be accomplished with ‘ballistics tests’ on said firearms? Or are you a _CSI_ fan and just wanted to throw that one out there? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/232 "2005-03-15T02:27:56Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Not that the rest of your, uhm, ‘insightful debate’ is any less goofy, but what do you think would be accomplished with ‘ballistics tests’ on said firearms? Or are you a _CSI_ fan and just wanted to throw that one out there? Actually, I’d like to avoid a repeat scenario like what occured in [this case](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1434235,00.html): > [@](#): > > The Israeli army has told the family of a British journalist killed in the Gaza Strip that the soldier responsible will face only minor disciplinary charges, despite the investigators’ suspicion that he illegally shot James Miller two years ago. > > In its first account of the killing the army said the armoured vehicle was under fire at the time, but video footage showed this to be untrue. The army altered its version twice more, effectively shifting responsibility to the victim, but these accounts were also shown to be false. > > The Miller family describes the killing as murder and accuses the army of ignoring, destroying or sabotaging evidence. > > Crucially, the soldiers in the vehicle were not asked to hand in their weapons for inspection until a month after the killing, and there is some evidence that the guns may have been swapped. > > Yesterday the army said the soldier concerned would not face more serious charges because of a lack of ballistics evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/233 "2005-03-15T02:58:43Z")
Uhmmm, OK. At best, _CSI_-ish ‘ballistics evidence’ will show that yes, 5.56mm (or 7.62mm or whatever) rounds were fired by weapons similiar to those carried by the soldiers at the checkpoint. That’s it, contrary to what ‘The Guardian’ (didn’t they do that nutty ‘write a letter to a Bush voter’ thing a while back?) might claim. The problem with all that, of course, is that nobody is disputing that they shot the car. What is being laughed at is the notion that we were trying to off some ‘journalist’, and gadzooks! she got away. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/234 "2005-03-15T04:37:47Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Sad that **Tigers** \*\* seems to be channelling _Ann Coulter_, and cannot provide a coherent rebuttal to my cites TIGERS: Calling Ann Coulter ---------------- Come in Ann Coulter – do you read me? ------------- ANN: Ann Coulter here. TIGERS: Ann — I need some advice. I’m up against the notorious annaplurabelle on the Sgrena case. ANN: Damn it all!! TIGERS: I’m looking for a “coherent rebuttal to her cites” ---- can you help? ANN: You understand Tigers that if our relationship is revealed - your life might be in danger. TIGERS (with tears in eyes): I understand Ann. ANN: I must tell you this Tigers. Annapluabelle’s MO is to drive the opponent completely insane. You must stuff your ears with wax. TIGERS: Master? ANN: Tigers — attempt to snatch this grasshopper from my hand. TIGERS: But what does grabbing grasshoppers have to do with the Sgrena case? ANN: God speed Tigers2B1. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/235 "2005-03-24T16:22:02Z")
[The U.S. military command in Iraq has blocked two Italian policemen from examining the car in which an Italian intelligence agent was shot to death in Baghdad](http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-740304.php) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/236 "2005-03-24T20:32:19Z")
How do you interperet that PatriotX? Or did you just toss that out as an FYI? If the US is investigating already, SHOULD they allow another government to send agents at the same time to investigate? Is this normal proceedure? Is the car considered evidence in the investigation? -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/237 "2005-03-24T21:45:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > How do you interperet that PatriotX? Didn’t bother. > [@xtisme](#): > > Or did you just toss that out as an FYI? Mostly. > [@xtisme](#): > > If the US is investigating already, SHOULD they allow another government to send agents at the same time to investigate? Given that it involves an agent of the foreign government in question, (a friendly for gov at that), I’d say so. If the nationalities were reversed, I’d want the Us to be able to conduct an investigation as well. > [@xtisme](#): > > Is this normal proceedure? Hella I know. > [@xtisme](#): > > Is the car considered evidence in the investigation? > -XT Seems it’d be silly for it not to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=11)