# Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355 "2005-03-07T13:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/81 "2005-03-07T19:48:14Z")
Sure. Why not? They could have, but we don’t know. If you want my wild assed guess it’s this: They probably fired a burst of a few bullets at the engine block of the car. This would stop it without instantly killing everyone inside. One bullet gets into the passanger compartment and kills one and wounds another. Military folks: M16’s have a burst setting which means three bullets fired, correct? [/random guess] I’m sure that more info will come out later, but it’s not as if it matters. Those who hate the troops have already filed this in their minds as yet another murderous action by our evil soldier-villains. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/82 "2005-03-07T19:49:56Z")
Well I’ve already got a pathetic pitting on one post… so I’ll just lay it clear to Debasers and other quick to conclusion guys. This is what I think: - I haven’t seen one doper say the commie reporter was right. So much for the “you guys are swallowing the commie italian bitch story” talk. - I certainly think her story isn’t the most reliable for various reasons including a gun wound and her political affiliations. - Being a commie doesn’t make her 100% wrong either. - I certainly would like to see more of the driver’s version since he probably saw more. - The italians and the americans probably fucked up… but it was americans that killed needlessly… and its not like its a major novelty to see reporters getting hit by US gunfire is it ? - The italians are being stupid for paying ransoms… unless you think turning insurgents into organized crime is a step forward. Once they give up fighting americans… they certainly will have some ransoming foreigner business experience. - In the end this all looks very bad for the US occupation no matter how much anyone spins it… more needless bloodshed in a chaotic situation. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/83 "2005-03-07T19:54:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m sure that more info will come out later, but it’s not as if it matters. Those who hate the troops have already filed this in their minds as yet another murderous action by our evil soldier-villains. Personally I am more than happy as long as a proper enquiry is conducted and appropriate action taken if anyone is found at fault. You seem to be prejudging the enquiry at least as much as anyone else in this thread. And I thought you Americans didn’t do irony? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/84 "2005-03-07T19:54:53Z")
Is it not the case that modern militaries instruct their soldiers and agents to try to speed through an ambush? Is there not a possibility that the Italian driver mistook the checkpoint for some sort of ambush? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/85 "2005-03-07T19:58:20Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Does anyone seriously believe that troops who felt threatened by a car coming towards them would fire only one bullet at it? They might fire some ‘warning shots’ at a car though if they were feeling threatened by it, or merely wanted to warn it off…one of which might have killed the man in question. THAT I find plausable. They might have fired a few shots into the engine compartment, one of which bounced off something and killed the man. Or a stray round might have killed him. But I can practically guarentee you that if those soldiers, or even if one soldier had fired his weapon on full auto INTO the passenger compartment, there would have been more casualties than there were. And if they used a ‘tanks’ secondary weapons and fired THAT into the passenger compartment…well, you’d need a mop and bucket to clean up the folks in there, not strechers. And yon reporter would not be telling her story atm. This is all straying from the OP or even the main thrust of the thread though. I think there simply isn’t enough information to make an informed decision here as to what exactly DID happen, one way or the other. Unless someone is looking at different data than I’ve read or seen presented here we just don’t know exactly what happened. Was it a formal roadblock? A temporary roadblock? Random patrol? How exactly were the Italians driving? Fast, slow or somewhere inbetween? Did they KNOW there was a patrol or roadblock in the area? What exact proceedures did the soldiers use to attempt to halt the car? Were the Italians aware of the initial ones? Did they not see, or did they ignore them? From what I see, we simply don’t know the answers to any of these…we merely have both sides VERSION of events without any actual proof of what happened. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/86 "2005-03-07T19:59:11Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > As a side note ------ Anybody want to guess what the 10 to 13.4 million dollars in ransom the Italian Government paid to the kidnappers will be used for? Come on — let’s use our imagination – That’s the real story here. If I were an Italian citizen, especially a soldier or the family of one, I’d be outraged. By paying bounties on Italian hostages, they are putting a large crosshairs on all Italian’s that are in Iraq. This is an extremely foolish and reckless thing for the Italian government to do. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/87 "2005-03-07T20:05:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That’s the real story here. If I were an Italian citizen, especially a soldier or the family of one, I’d be outraged. By paying bounties on Italian hostages, they are putting a large crosshairs on all Italian’s that are in Iraq. > > This is an extremely foolish and reckless thing for the Italian government to do. More than that ----- these fracktards can now take their 10 to 13 million in ransom dollars and go shopping in North Korea or any other ‘like minded’ Weapon-Mart. We’re all that much more in the cross-hairs IMO. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/88 "2005-03-07T20:06:34Z")
Looks like we’ll have to wait to see photos of the car. [quote=Associated Press] When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn’t know where it was. [AP article](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20050306/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_reconstruction) detailing the knowns and unknowns in this case as of yesterday. My opinion: Occam’s Razor suggests trigger-happy, scared kids and a flawed checkpoint system are to blame. There was no dark plan to assasinate a journalist because there is no upside for the U.S. on this. This is just a bad wartime accident that has escalated into a diplomatic fuckup of the first order. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/89 "2005-03-07T20:14:28Z")
**Avenger** , the troops (as much as they’ve been allowed to say so far) say that they did fire plenty of rounds–into the engine block, the SOP. The only bullet that we know for sure entered the cab is the one that killed Nicola. Nobody else, including the people closer to the engine block like the driver (assuming Nicola was in the back seat) got hit. That’s what’s so strange. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/90 "2005-03-07T20:18:38Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This is an extremely foolish and reckless thing for the Italian government to do. yep… I’d say Berlusconi prefers to keep italians alive and his political support of Bush less costly than actually helping out in Iraq. With allies like this… good luck getting anything done in Iraq. Do remember its the second “confirmed” hostage ransoming by the Italian government. Its government money to make it worse… so how can they keep it secret ? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/91 "2005-03-07T20:18:40Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Sounds pretty familiar so far doesn’t it? It would have stayed that way as well if a journalist wasn’t with them and reported the event > [Seven women and children shot dead at checkpoint | World news | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,927120,00.html) I don’t have an opinion on the immediate OP, as I don’t think I have enough facts to opine (as it happens, I don’t think y’all do either, but there you go). However, I have to point out that the Guardian’s portrayal of the Post story is incomplete. Specifically, it left out that [the platoon leader claimed that Capt. Johnson was in error and that he did indeed fire two warning shots.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61229-2003Mar31?language=printer) That’s not a slam at the Guardian, whom I’m usually eager to slam – their report was almost contemperaneous with the Post’s, and fog of war and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/92 "2005-03-07T20:28:00Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > **Avenger** , the troops (as much as they’ve been allowed to say so far) say that they did fire plenty of rounds–into the engine block, the SOP. The only bullet that we know for sure entered the cab is the one that killed Nicola. Nobody else, including the people closer to the engine block like the driver (assuming Nicola was in the back seat) got hit. That’s what’s so strange. I don’t have any real knowledge of the effectiveness of such things, but is it fair to assume that a vehicle being used by Italian spooks did have some degree of armour on it? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/93 "2005-03-07T20:37:59Z")
Good question, **Avenger**. Obviously they couldn’t have any sort of official markings or they’d tip off the insurgents, but we haven’t seen the car and don’t know if it was specialized or not. And now the Guarniad mentions the other two agents were ‘hurt’, but they don’t say ‘shot’. Uhm…hurt how? Another fact we’re missing. I mean, sitting in a car that’s having its front shot out will give you whiplash at least. ---
**Author:** ![Synthesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@Synthesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Synthesis)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/94 "2005-03-07T21:10:16Z")
The bottomline is that this is an unfortunate accident made possible because of all the terrorist assholes that have been blowing up themselves and our soldiers or innocent people at checkpoints. Regardless of the politics that got them there, many of these soldiers have been exposed firsthand to attempts to kill them or their peers and I think most anybody would be trigger happy at this point. ---
**Author:** ![GKW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@GKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKW)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/95 "2005-03-07T21:36:17Z")
> [@Synthesis](#): > > Regardless of the politics that got them there, many of these soldiers have been exposed firsthand to attempts to kill them or their peers and I think most anybody would be trigger happy at this point. Then I don’t understand why the American check points don’t have signs in Arabic and English stating, “Stop or you will be shot.” The Christian Science Monitor article that **Dorjan** linked to seemed to indicate that this was SOP for the Iraqi security forces to display these signs why don’t we? The check points sound very confusing and scary for everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/96 "2005-03-07T21:42:08Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > yep… I’d say Berlusconi prefers to keep italians alive and his political support of Bush less costly than actually helping out in Iraq. With allies like this… good luck getting anything done in Iraq. Do remember its the second “confirmed” hostage ransoming by the Italian government. > > Its government money to make it worse… so how can they keep it secret ? Ummm, sounds like Berlusconi can barely hold his water when it comes time to ‘do deals’ with the terrorists. So now it seems the terrorists may have stumbled onto a cash cow. A goose that craps out gold eggs on cue. Do they ever ask how many car bombs does 13 million bucks buy? Not saying they’ll spend it all that way – now that they can afford it - just makes ya wonder. Oh, and makes ya how much money the Italian Government has - and just maybe, it makes the Italian Government NOW wonder if paying ransom wasn’t an unsound government policy after all. > [@](#): > > \*\*…After a string of kidnappings in Iraq, Italians are wondering whether they are paying the price for a perceived state policy of paying ransom. > > Ten Italians have been abducted in Iraq in the past year, a disproportionately high number by comparison with the United States or Britain, which staunchly oppose payments – even if that means hostages die. > > The last Italian hostage, award-winning war correspondent Giuliana Sgrena, was released unharmed by her Iraqi kidnappers on Friday amid reports of a multi-million-dollar pay-off which even a government minister called “likely”. > > But instead of celebrating Sgrena’s release, Italy is in shock after an intelligence agent was shot dead by U.S. troops as he was ferrying her out of the country. > > “We have to rethink our strategy in dealing with kidnappings,” Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi was quoted as saying by Il Messaggero newspaper on Monday. > > Berlusconi has always denied authorising the payment of ransoms in past kidnappings, saying only that his government had had to make “difficult choices”. But speaking off the record, officials say large sums of money have changed hands. > > Lucia Annunziata, former president of state television RAI, said on Monday that according to calculations made privately by government sources, Italy had paid Sunni guerrillas in Iraq nearly $15 million (7.8 million pounds) for hostages in the past year. > > “The frequency of our kidnappings has transformed that which was an extraordinary, emergency option into plain and simple policy,” said Annunziata, who worked in Iraq earlier this year as reporter for La Stampa newspaper….\*\* [http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-03-07T164657Z\_01\_CHA760126\_RTRUKOC\_0\_IRAQ-ITALY-RANSOM.xml](http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-03-07T164657Z_01_CHA760126_RTRUKOC_0_IRAQ-ITALY-RANSOM.xml) ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/97 "2005-03-07T22:12:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > There is a show on one of the networks (TLC or Discovery, don’t remember which) called Mythbusters…its a great show btw, reminds me of Cecil except they do it on TV. Same kind of humor, same kind of rough and ready experiments, same types of conclusions drawn. I highly recommend it for entertainment value at least. > > Anyway, they did an episode to see if you really could hide behind a car if someone was shooting at you, a la Hollywood movies. They used various caliburs to test it out. The upshot was, most of them went right through the car…both sides. If a patrol of ‘tanks’ had even put a single burst of either 50 cal OR 30 cal into that car, even if they were only aiming at the engine block, it would be swiss cheese. I doubt there would be many survivors. And certainly there wouldn’t be a single killed by a single bullet (which, if I’m reading the various stories correctly is what happened). That part of the story, whether its ‘tanks’ or soldiers with M16’s hosing the car down is just not plausable IMO. > > -XT I was reading in the paper today about it, and there was a mention of “300 or 400 rounds fired at the car”. That car must have looked like Sonny’s in The Godfather…or Bonnie and Clyde’s Death car. I can’t see anyone surviving something like that. ---
**Author:** ![lostronin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a4c791/32.png) [@lostronin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lostronin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/98 "2005-03-07T22:38:58Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > I was reading in the paper today about it, and there was a mention of “300 or 400 rounds fired at the car”. > > That car must have looked like Sonny’s in The Godfather…or Bonnie and Clyde’s Death car. I can’t see anyone surviving something like that. There are just too many conflicting reports and changing stories to tell, at this point, what really went down. Wondering what sort of condition the vehicle is in today this gentlemans blog claims to have an “after” photo or two. Real or not I’ve no clue but if accurate they seem to contradict the hail of bullets theory. [http://www.madogre.com/News.html](http://www.madogre.com/News.html) Other site content may cause some to dismiss the photos but hey, a pic is a pic! ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/99 "2005-03-07T22:55:03Z")
> [@lostronin](#): > > There are just too many conflicting reports and changing stories to tell, at this point, what really went down. Wondering what sort of condition the vehicle is in today this gentlemans blog claims to have an “after” photo or two. Real or not I’ve no clue but if accurate they seem to contradict the hail of bullets theory. > > [http://www.madogre.com/News.html](http://www.madogre.com/News.html) > > Other site content may cause some to dismiss the photos but hey, a pic is a pic! I’ve seen that photo and it’s not the car used by the Italians that was supposed to have been shot-up. That photo is a still from an AP video. AP, while discussing the ‘patrol shooting,’ shows this car, which was the one Sgrena was riding in WHEN SHE WAS FIRST KIDNAPPED — but don’t go on to explain. Hence, this photo is now going around the Internet as ‘the car’ Sgrena was in when she approached the ‘inspection stop.’ AP just either got it completely wrong or was really sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/100 "2005-03-07T23:35:29Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > Also, shining a spotlight on someone means that that person will be completely blind to the source of the light. This can only add confusion to someone approaching a checkpoint, so there is no way it can qualify as a warning. Surely you’re not insinuating that it’s hard to see hand signals from the guy standing next to the spotlight that’s blinding you? -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=6)