# Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355 "2005-03-07T13:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/121 "2005-03-08T19:14:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s completely unrealistic. This is a war zone. The preferred method of attacking checkpoints is a suicide car bomb. The soldiers dealing with this have seconds to make a decision. Checkpoints should be approached accordingly. There is ample evidence that people, especially Iraqi civilians, are unsure of where the checkpoints are when they approach them and what exactly they are required to do. Perhaps you can detail the steps that the US military has taken to inform the populace of the correct procedure and to make sure that checkpoints are easily visible and identifiable? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/122 "2005-03-08T20:31:37Z")
Ummmm – The terrorists have reportedly produced a video where they claim that the Italian government offered, but they refused, a ransom for Sgrena’s release. The terrorists indicated that they released Sgrena without a ransom because _“After some research we have decided … this is not one of the principles of the resistance…”_ Point taken. Regarding the purported ransom, this video statement both contradicts the Italian official line (that no money is being paid to terrorists for release of captives) AND contradicts the earlier ‘unofficial’ leak that a ransom of between 10 to 13.4 million was paid to the terrorists for Sgrena’s release. Conclusion: Someone is clearly lying about ransom money. — – If the terrorists did decline the money offered, this may be the last opportunity for this style of terrorist fund raising since, it appears, the Italian government may be changing their policy. A ‘prior’ policy which, according to some inside government, allowed these money payments. Sadly, it appears the policy change isn’t occurring because money paid to terrorists might fund bombings and other similar projects – leading to the deaths of large numbers of innocent people – but rather because the policy seems to be leading to larger numbers of Italians being kidnapped. Sad, very sad. (Note again however – it is the ‘official line’ that ransom is not paid and never was.) Here’s a portion of the short article and the link – > [@](#): > > \*\*Members of the Iraq Islamic Army who abducted the Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena state that they refused the ransom money offered for the journalist’s release. > > In the videocassette containing the image of Sgrena and the hostage takers that was broadcast earlier today, the two gunmen standing behind Sgrena read out the following statement: “After some research, we have decided to release her without accepting any of the ransom money that was offered. This is not one of the principles of the resistance.”…\*\* [http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050308&hn=17287](http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050308&hn=17287) ---
**Author:** ![lostronin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a4c791/32.png) [@lostronin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lostronin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/123 "2005-03-08T20:54:31Z")
Best as I can tell this is vehicle they were riding in. Perhaps an Italian speaking doper can translate. Link is from a DU post! Six photo’s total, none of which affirm the shootout described. Looks like one round thru the windshield, maybe another on the LF tire. Assasination attempt? Don’t think so! > **[la Repubblica - News in tempo reale - Le notizie e i video di politica,...](https://www.repubblica.it/)** > > Repubblica è il quotidiano online aggiornato 24 ore su 24 su politica, cronaca, economia, sport, esteri, spettacoli, musica, cultura, scienza, tecnologia. IMMAGINI: l’auto colpita dai soldati Usa ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/124 "2005-03-08T21:02:35Z")
Great find **lostronin**! — it does seem _la Repubblica.it_ has just published pictures of a car ( **BUT not a pickup truck as they reported earlier??** ) that it says is the car in which Sgrena was riding and Calipari was killed. There are six pictures – separately linked - [http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/6.html](http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/6.html) [http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/5.html](http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/5.html) [http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/4.html](http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/4.html) [http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/3.html](http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/3.html) [http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/2.html](http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/2.html) [http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/1.html](http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/125 "2005-03-08T22:09:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I did read it. I remain unconvinced. I’ve seen no evidence that our checkpoint system is seriously flawed, nor that such shooting incidents are anything more than anomolies…certainly not every day occurances. And Christian Science monitor, while not a complete BS cite, is not exactly who I’d look to as an authority on this question in any case…certainly not to the extent that I’d say case closed on their word. > > I disagree as to what it might or might not mean in general (and I’m unsure how representative it is to say that this happens frequently), and I also disagree that we can draw any kind of evidence based on THIS particular event as the stories are conflicting as to what happened…and I think its inconclusive as too which story is more (or less) accurate. We simply don’t have enough facts (to spell it out plainly, we don’t KNOW how the Italians were driving towards this checkpoint or what exactly happened), and we many never have enough facts in this case as its all based on observational anacedotes of the folks involved…notoriously bad sources of data. > > So again, in YOUR mind this might be a closed case, but to me its anything but. > > -XT Here is a pretty good PBS interview with a well-spoken lieutenant who served in Iraq at many checkpoints: [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle\_east/jan-june05/checkpoint\_3-7.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june05/checkpoint_3-7.html) > [@](#): > > And traditionally what you want to do is create a sign or a series of almost road signs that would be a few hundred meters down the road in English and in Arabic and in visible color, so that drivers are alerted that there is a checkpoint approaching. > […] > Then you have light signals or hand signals, you can tell people to slow down or to wait. > […] > And then warning shots are probably the last resort before actually firing. And once you do fire, they’re firing at the engine block because they want to disable the vehicle. > [@](#): > > […] we had a drunk driver who was so drunk he could barely keep his car on the road who came barreling toward a checkpoint and violated all the signs, all the warnings. It is obvious that the U.S. military is not using an obstacle system to slow down approaching vehicles. If they were, it would eliminate the need to fire on cars that are approaching too fast. There is definitely some type of failure in higher command. Someone needs to improve the checkpoint system. It’s not as if the military never uses this tactic, as there is an Air Force base in my state that does this. Note that an obstacle system doesn’t necessarily have to slow down traffic. If one obstacle were mobile, such as a truck, it could be moved back and forth, depending on whether you want to slow cars down to a crawl, or freely allow traffic to pass. The Christian Science Monitor article is just an example of how Iraqis can get confused with the U.S.'s current sytem of checkpoints. It isn’t incredible to believe that civilians do not know proper checkpoint procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/126 "2005-03-08T23:15:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > As noted above a large proportion of the world would tend to concur with Rashak Mani. Unless you have access to news sources other than US mainstream media (a few newspapers excepted) then you would not know how US military and political cock-ups/conspiracies/other events are reported…Of course, being immersed in the mono-culture that is US news and current affairs, it is almost impossible to form a clear view of how the US is really perceived abroad. **Pjen** has been riding this horse for a very long time here, in the face of repeated demonstrations that Americans are quite well aware of how U.S. actions are portrayed abroad. In just the case of this shooting, the New York Times (a nationally distributed newspaper) has covered the fallout extensively. You can find plenty about it on [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/08/italy.sgrena/index.html). Or even (gasp) [Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149724,00.html). I believe **Pjen’s** frustration stems from the fact that many Americans are more prone to believe _their_ major news sources than _his_ news sources. I was initially encouraged in reading this thread to see **Pjen** asking questions in what looked like a spirit of genuine inquiry. Sadly, this degenerated quickly. > [@Pjen](#): > > An unbiased account would be…The U.S. forces opened fire without any overt sign of aggression from the vehicle. > [@Pjen](#): > > Your rush to grab at such straws shows your keeness to exonerate the troops without waiting for a full investigation on both sides. Irony, thy name is **Pjen**. :rolleyes: To address **Pjen’s** list of three possible explanations for the tragic event, I (pending further investigation) lean toward the idea of a “horrid accident”, in part possibly caused by overly quick reaction by troops who face ambush and suicide bombs on a frequent basis. I have difficulty believing that the Italians were entirely blameless or that the U.S. military handled the affair in a faultless manner. As to the theory of deliberate “state terror”, I’ll leave that type of thinking to the sort of delusional paranoid who, on the other side of the fence, is probably speculating that the Italian journalist and her companions staged a deliberate provocation designed to embarass the U.S. and force the withdrawal of Italy’s troops from Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/127 "2005-03-09T00:39:48Z")
> [@matt](#): > > This has to be a tragic accident. . Problem is that this kind of “tragic accident” happens all the time, as reported by news outlets. The only difference is that in this case, the victims were westerners, not Irakis, and high profile ones at that. The US do indemnize the victims of such “tragic accidents”. I can’t remember the exact amount paid for loss of life or limb, but it’s IMO a paltry sum. In exchange, the victims agree with not pursuing the issue. These “tragic accidents” at roadblocks (or involving vehicles running in the general direction of an USarmy vehicle), at least according to the french press, would be rather commonplace (and I read about them before this particular incident, it’s not something that was unheard of before…by the way, it’s apparently even worse in Afghanistan, in particular regarding the ill-famed “private contractors”). The fact that the US refuses to release any figure about the number of deaths related to “roadbloks tragic accidents”, nor about the number of people indemnized doesn’t do any good to the perception the general public (that would include me) has of the general behavior of the US troops, command and rules of engagement. You choose to hide what you know, why should I pay any attention to your official stance? How could I not suspect that your position isn’t defensible when you refuse to relase informations? IOW, when I heard about this new, I just thought “OK…this time, that’s not a random Iraki nobody who was shot, but a high profile victim. It’s going to make a fuss”. IOW, I wasn’t at all surprised by the accident, only by the identity of the victims. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/128 "2005-03-09T01:06:42Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Its government money to make it worse… so how can they keep it secret ? hey obviously don’t keep it secret, since apparently everybody knows about it. And yes, it was essentially publically acknowledged they had paid a ransom too for the release of the two young women taken hostages last year. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/129 "2005-03-09T01:24:16Z")
> [@Scarface Z](#): > > Since when does a mere patrol stop any speeding car under the threat of fire? it is an equally plausible situation that the car could have been fleeing violence rather than looking to inflict it. > > Also, how can they even say firing shots is an appropriate warning? Most people’s instant reaction a gunshot is 1) freeze(bodily, not the car) 2) “where did that come from” 3)either stop or speed up to escape the gunfire. A gun shots I imagine would slow down reaction time on average. I understand that this road is very well known for being a hot spot and that many attacks and ambushes took place along it. Also, members of an intelligence service driving in a war zone wouldn’t be expected to react like a random driver suddenly hearing a gunshot in a peaceful area. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/130 "2005-03-09T01:29:31Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Add to the facts above, Caliapri’s decision to forego an available escort from the Italian embassy while driving the seven mile span of road and chose instead an unprotected rented pickup. I read yesterday that the Italians would have chosen not to appear as any kind of official convoy in order to avoid being attacked by Irakis insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Scarface\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Scarface\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarface_Z)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/131 "2005-03-09T03:05:04Z")
Did anyone else listen to BBC news today? Maybe I’m the only one who listens to public radio. The Italian government has officially dissmissed Sgrena’s claim that someone deliberately tried to kill her, but they want the US to fully investigate and punish those responsible. Perhaps this is old news, but this is why I like public radio, I can get news filtered by an entirely different government. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/132 "2005-03-09T12:21:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s completely unrealistic. This is a war zone. The preferred method of attacking checkpoints is a suicide car bomb. The soldiers dealing with this have seconds to make a decision. Checkpoints should be approached accordingly. Then set checkpoints up so that cars can’t approach at speed, as should be SOP. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/133 "2005-03-09T12:23:43Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > **tagos** – I see you’ve reach a number of ‘clearly established’ conclusions and ‘sheer facts’ already. Since this seems clear to you — why do you think Calipari decided to rent a pickup truck for this job rather than use an escort from the Italian embassy? I’d be interested in your insight – Secrecy - so as not to attract attention from bad guys. Seems pretty obvious. How do you think the US troops would have reacted to a car full of armed men approaching? Would you want a firefight between the Italians and the US? Are you suggesting that allies need an armed escort to protect them from US trrops? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/134 "2005-03-09T12:28:28Z")
> [@Well](#): > > Thats a bit naive. Have you considered the reprocussions of having suicide car bombers be able to target any facility or group of people they want? Have you thought of all the advantages in doing things damn properly in the first place? This isn’t either do it in a half-arsed way bound to lead to innocent deaths or not doing it at all. Have you thought of the hearts and minds advantages of not shooting innocent people, your allies etc? See - it’s a game anyone can play. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/135 "2005-03-09T16:42:46Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Secrecy - so as not to attract attention from bad guys. Seems pretty obvious. How do you think the US troops would have reacted to a car full of armed men approaching? Would you want a firefight between the Italians and the US? Are you suggesting that allies need an armed escort to protect them from US trrops? It’s “secrecy?” And that’s “pretty obvious” you add. And secrecy not from just anybody, but only from the “bad guys” – I can buy that if framed as a GUESS – but you have to admit, it’s still a pretty laconic statement you’ve responded with. Very open to interpertation. For example – Who are the “bad guys” you mention as the motivation for the secrecy? And since it’s “obvious” (to you) I’m certain you’ve already processed the information (known and unknown to us without keen insight) and produced a final result. — So, are the “bad guys” the Italians? The Americans? The terrorists? All three? Two of three? Someone else? Who? And the “secrecy” you mention, what’s the motivation for that? To hide the ransom money to ensure that it reaches the hands of the terrorists? To hide from other ransom hungry terrorists? To ensure safety? To save lives? All? Some? None? Why? And then — you’vve stated it’s all “pretty obvious” ------- how? Forgive me but apparently I’m not as blessed as you appear to be – ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/136 "2005-03-09T17:01:19Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > It’s “secrecy?” And that’s “pretty obvious” you add. And secrecy not from just anybody, but only from the “bad guys” – I can buy that if framed as a GUESS – but you have to admit, it’s still a pretty laconic statement you’ve responded with. Very open to interpertation. For example – Who are the “bad guys” you mention as the motivation for the secrecy? And since it’s “obvious” (to you) I’m certain you’ve already processed the information (known and unknown to us without keen insight) and produced a final result. — So, are the “bad guys” the Italians? The Americans? The terrorists? All three? Two of three? Someone else? Who? And the “secrecy” you mention, what’s the motivation for that? To hide the ransom money to ensure that it reaches the hands of the terrorists? To hide from other ransom hungry terrorists? To ensure safety? To save lives? All? Some? None? Why? > > And then — you’vve stated it’s all “pretty obvious” ------- how? Forgive me but apparently I’m not as blessed as you appear to be – The bad guys are obviously the insurgents. And if US troops are acting on a safety-first policy that permits them to kill on suspicion instead of setting up properly controlled points on a dangerous road then their commanders are also ‘bad guys’ for putting them in a position where they end up killing innocent people and no doubt being scarred for life. And the ‘bad guys’ are also Bush and Blair for the troops being sent there on lies and false expectations, hideously under-trained and equipped for what they face in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/137 "2005-03-09T17:03:57Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > And then — you’vve stated it’s all “pretty obvious” ------- how? Forgive me but apparently I’m not as blessed as you appear to be – Well, perhaps you should learn more then. See, I can do sarcasm too. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/138 "2005-03-09T17:08:48Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The bad guys are obviously the insurgents. And if US troops are acting on a safety-first policy that permits them to kill on suspicion… First **tagos** you seem quite more than willing to assume an intent to kill here. From whence did you retrieve that gem? And second, you must have missed the reports of car bombs. They’re using them now. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/139 "2005-03-09T17:16:15Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The bad guys are obviously the insurgents. … And the ‘bad guys’ are also Bush and Blair for the troops being sent there on lies and false expectations, hideously under-trained and equipped for what they face in the first place. But the bad guys can’t be the Italian government who are in all likelihood funding terrorists operations by ransom money?? By what standards do you reach these disparate conclusions? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/140 "2005-03-09T17:26:41Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Well, perhaps you should learn more then. See, I can do sarcasm too. And ‘first rate’ sarcasm I might add – [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=8)