# Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355 "2005-03-07T13:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/141 "2005-03-09T20:13:43Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > First **tagos** you seem quite more than willing to assume an intent to kill here. From whence did you retrieve that gem? **Tigers** , you’re always an inspiration. 😉 Aren’t you providing a motive for ‘intent to kill’ with your posts about ransom money? > [@Tigers2B1](#): > > And the “secrecy” you mention, what’s the motivation for that? To hide the ransom money to ensure that it reaches the hands of the terrorists? The money wasn’t brought to Iraq. If money changed hands (and I’m guessing it did), it happened in Abu Dhabi - Nicola Calipari’s stop off before Baghdad. He was a high level SISMI agent, with lots of contacts and experience in ME and elsewhere - a valuable asset. I’m only going by the chatter that is just beginning in Italy, but there are numerous reasons why it’s no surprise that he was hit. And no, I’m not blaming ‘The Troops’ (US). Most likely a LIHOP via ‘mis-communication’ in the chain of command. Perhaps a sniper in place to ensure the hit to Calipari, under the cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car. Lots of paid snipers in Iraq, on all sides. Again, just a guess (and I also guess we’ll never know the whole truth), but if it _was_ a hit with ‘intent’, the target was Calipari. Of course, Sgrena is still a convenient target for some organised right-wing smearing, but that’s a red herring, IMO. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Its government money to make it worse… so how can they keep it secret ? Word is, Berlu paid ‘out of pocket’ for the (surviving)Italian ‘contractors’ last year - just in time for the election… ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/142 "2005-03-09T20:14:12Z")
The other agent in the car has spoken to the Italian authorities it seems. > [@](#): > > Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said the car carrying an Italian agent killed by US fire had stopped immediately a light flashed. > > His statement contradicts US accounts of the incident in Iraq. > > …snip… > > The prime minister said the US military had authorised the Italian journey to the airport. > > …snip… > > “A light was flashed at the vehicle from 10m away,” Mr Berlusconi said. "The driver at this point stopped the car immediately and at the same time there was gunfire for about 10 or 15 seconds. > > “A few shots reached the vehicle and another one reached and killed Mr Calipari,” he said. The Italians are calling for the US to accept responsibility. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4333839.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4333839.stm) ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/143 "2005-03-09T20:23:28Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > The Italians are calling for the US to accept responsibility. Yes, of course. Let the games begin. ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/144 "2005-03-09T20:23:35Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Have you thought of all the advantages in doing things damn properly in the first place? > > This isn’t either do it in a half-arsed way bound to lead to innocent deaths or not doing it at all. > > Have you thought of the hearts and minds advantages of not shooting innocent people, your allies etc? > > See - it’s a game anyone can play. I have thought about it and I think that the thousands of those killed by insurgents are not worth risking not doing checkpoints at all. For you to advocate that risk in leiu of what you personally deem as a proper checkpoint system is naive. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/145 "2005-03-09T20:28:46Z")
> [@Well](#): > > I have thought about it and I think that the thousands of those killed by insurgents are not worth risking not doing checkpoints at all. For you to advocate that risk in leiu of what you personally deem as a proper checkpoint system is naive. How many car bombers were thwarted because they were fired upon by US forces? Any idea? On what basis do you consider the efficiency, assuming you’ve got no hard numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/146 "2005-03-09T20:48:49Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > **Tigers** , you’re always an inspiration. 😉 > > Aren’t you providing a motive for ‘intent to kill’ with your posts about ransom money?.. I’m providing a motive for the Americans to kill Calipari? Albeit unwittingly? I’ve done it ---- a motive _after_ the ransom is paid mind you – and Sgrena is being driven back to the airport. But a motive still ---- yet, a motive because?? Well because the Americans knew all along about the ransom and then decided to kill Calipari _after_ it’s paid?? **annapluralbelle** I must say, “inspiration” doesn’t describe that — IF — IF they wanted to kill an agent of an allied country I’m certain they’d do it just as you’ve suggested - > [@](#): > > …The money wasn’t brought to Iraq. If money changed hands (and I’m guessing it did), it happened in Abu Dhabi - Nicola Calipari’s stop off before Baghdad. Assuming, just assuming for this post that what you assert is right ---- how does this connect with the “intent to kill” implied by **tagos** and suggested by you? > [@](#): > > …He was a high level SISMI agent, with lots of contacts and experience in ME and elsewhere - a valuable asset. I’m only going by the chatter that is just beginning in Italy, but there are numerous reasons why it’s no surprise that he was hit. > > And no, I’m not blaming ‘The Troops’ (US). Most likely a LIHOP via ‘mis-communication’ in the chain of command. Perhaps a sniper in place to ensure the hit to Calipari, under the cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car. Lots of paid snipers in Iraq, on all sides.…. Oh christ — close the gates before more of ‘em escape –— Let me get you version straight – _“a sniper”_ killed Calipari _“under cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car”_ ------- Now that makes one hell of a lot of sense **annapluralbelle** – yep, slice it, dice it, hold it upsidedown, – one hell of a lot of sense. > [@](#): > > …Word is, Berlu paid ‘out of pocket’ for the (surviving)Italian ‘contractors’ last year - just in time for the election… Coming back to Earth — Here’s the BBC report of an earlier random and “admission” (as it goes) of that ransom by the Italians – > [@](#): > > \*\* A senior Italian politician says he believes a ransom of $1m or more was paid for the release of two female Italian aid workers kidnapped in Iraq. > > Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said no money had been paid but MP Gustavo Selva described the denial as purely “official”…. > > …Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi fuelled the rumours by talking of “a difficult choice which had to be made”, the BBC’s Guto Harri notes from Rome. > > Gustavo Selva is head of the Italian parliament’s foreign affairs committee and a member of the National Alliance, one of the parties in the governing coalition. > > “The young women’s life was the most important thing,” he told French radio on Wednesday. > > “In principle, one should not give in to blackmail, but this time I think we had to give in…”\*\* [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3700480.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3700480.stm) ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/147 "2005-03-09T21:13:50Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Assuming, just assuming for this post that what you assert is right ---- how does this connect with the “intent to kill” implied by tagos and suggested by you? No direct connection. Just trying to educate you about the art of ransom negotiations. It’s more complex than your posts would indicate. But separate from the reasons why Calipari might be a target for elimination. Sorry if you’re confused. > [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Oh christ — close the gates before more of ‘em escape –— Let me get you version straight – “a sniper” killed Calipari “under cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car” ------- Now that makes one hell of a lot of sense annapluralbelle – yep, slice it, dice it, hold it upsidedown, – one hell of a lot of sense. If we are speculating an intentional hit (_if_, mind you), that would be the ideal (ie, simplest) scenario. Or do you have a better one? I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with the kidnap/rescue info re the ‘two Simona’s’. What’s your point? I think you might need more of an education re the history of ransom negotiations/payments. Are you really so shocked (shocked!) about the concept? This isn’t about Berlu, or the current Italian admin. This is a very old story. One could even say that Berlu is only emulating a(n) SOP inspired by the US founding fathers (to use an example you might relate to). Again, what is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/148 "2005-03-09T21:29:49Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …If we are speculating an intentional hit (_if_, mind you), that would be the ideal (ie, simplest) scenario. Or do you have a better one? Ah – “we” ain’t speculating – this “sniper” under cover of “dozen of shots” concept is all your baby. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/149 "2005-03-09T21:33:47Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with the kidnap/rescue info re the ‘two Simona’s’. What’s your point? > > I think you might need more of an education re the history of ransom negotiations/payments. Are you really so shocked (shocked!) about the concept? This isn’t about Berlu, or the current Italian admin. This is a very old story. One could even say that Berlu is only emulating a(n) SOP inspired by the US founding fathers (to use an example you might relate to)… Oh, and I forgot ----------- what in the hell is all of THAT?? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/150 "2005-03-09T22:00:18Z")
Yet again, **what is your point???** I’m assuming you’re interested in this story - you’ve posted in this thread and the one in the Pit - in both cases highlighting the angle of ransom payments, and how they might not be in the interests of the US occupation. Or at the very least, evil in some way, and therefore deserving of a lethal outcome. Yes or no? So what _is_ your point? That ransom payments defy the ‘Bush doctrine’ and therefore the Italians deserved to be fired upon??? Is that the gist of it? **Or** , are you asking me to believe that two high level SISMI agents _had no idea_ about the SOP at a US checkpoint, and the potential dangers therein, and therefore tried to _speed through it_??? _Stupid_ Italians? _Evil_ Italians? _What???_ Please try not to insult me with your answers this time. I don’t really care what you think of me personally, but I’d like to know if you have any knowledge that might interest me. In lieu of that knowledge, at least try to be more clever and amusing in your replies. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/151 "2005-03-09T22:07:05Z")
Ok, was going to get into this back and forth, but think instead I’ll answer Monocracy’s [cite](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june05/checkpoint_3-7.html) (just noticed you answered my own…sorry for the delay). Lets go through you cite a bit. Here are the discussion points about why Guiliana Sgrena is claiming she was attacked: > [@](#): > > MAURIZIO MOLINARI: Guiliana Sgrena is saying in the interviews that she gave that the reason for the ambush were mainly two: The first one, the opposition of the Bush administration to the policy of paying ransom to kidnappers. > [@](#): > > MAURIZIO MOLINARI: And the second reason that herself explained in several occasions publicly is that she’s saying that she has some secret information on the battle of Fallujah and that seems that the Americans don’t want her to reveal these stories. So, the US attacked her because of her opposition to the Bush adminstration (if this was the case the bodies would be piled high in the steets of America, but we won’t go there), and because she has sooper sekrit information about Fallujah known only to her that the US doesn’t want out. :dubious: Anyway, to get to your point: Here is what Fred Abrahams of Human Rights Watch had to say: > [@](#): > > FRED ABRAHAMS: Well, when I heard this news I was shocked. But I can’t say I was surprised, because unfortunately incidents like this where civilians die are frequent in Iraq. > > We’re hearing about this case today because the victims were Italians. But Iraqis face this type of violence on an almost – I can’t say daily but on a frequent basis. > > The report that we did, **at the end of 2003 we documented 18 cases of civilian deaths at the hands of U.S. troops in Baghdad alone over a five-month period**. And 11 of those cases were incidents at checkpoints. > > And mostly that’s when Iraqis civilians don’t realize that they’re supposed to stop. They don’t see the signs. They don’t see the lights. And they basically blunder into their own deaths. > > And so, you know, the report was very critical about the way checkpoints have been set up. **I do believe in all fairness, there have been improvements since that report was issued**. So, at the end of 2003 (think about that date and how long the US had been in Iraq at that time…and what had been going on) there were 18 documented cases of civilian deaths…11 of which occured at checkpoints. I notice he didn’t trot out stats for the end of 2004 (which I’m sure he had available)…one wonders why. Did it get worse…or better? Or stay the same. Not to be cold here, but 18 accidental deaths in a hot war zone, 11 of which occured at checkpoints seems…well, fairly low to me. This doesn’t seem to indicate a checkpoint system seriously flawed, even taking into account the 5 month timeframe. Is there a problem? Perhaps…hard to say. Is it a MAJOR problem…well, from THIS data (sketchy as it is) I’d have to say no. BTW, he goes on to say that there have been improvements to the system since his report was issued (presumably sometime early in 2004)…i.e. when we first got into Iraq perhaps our checkpoint system was less than optimal…and we fixed it to make it better. To go on, here is what Paul Rieckhoff (first lieutenant supposedly stationed in Iraq and who was at ‘countless’ of these checkpoints) had to say: > [@](#): > > PAUL RIECKHOFF: Well, you’re right. I spent roughly a year in Baghdad and manned countless checkpoints just like the one that’s described in this incident. > > I think the thing I want people to really understand is the enormous pressure that these soldiers are under and the enormity of the task that they’re faced with. > > \*\*They’re asked to make really split second decisions that could mean the difference between their own lives and obviously Iraqi civilian lives as well. It’s a tremendous amount of pressure and soldiers are forced to make these types of decisions in Iraq every single day. \*\* > > \*\*It’s really not a good duty that you want. I mean you’re under tremendous pressure from car bombs, from RPG’s, from insurgents. \*\* > > There’s a million and one ways that an American soldier could be killed in these checkpoints and at the same time they are trying to preserve the lives of civilians. > > I think the accusations that these American soldiers intentionally targeted the journalist or her car are really ridiculous, and I don’t think any American soldier would want to inflict that type of harm on anyone from anywhere He goes on to say: > [@](#): > > PAUL RIECKHOFF: And the important thing to understand is that there are various types of checkpoints. > > \*\*You have permanent checkpoints that could have been in place for almost two years now, and then you have more temporary checkpoints that could have been established in a matter of minutes. \*\* > > And traditionally what you want to do is create a sign or a series of almost road signs that would be a few hundred meters down the road in English and in Arabic and in visible color, so that drivers are alerted that there is a checkpoint approaching. > > You try to stagger these signs at intervals reaching up to the checkpoint. And then you’ve got concertina wire or barbed wire and the soldiers do have an escalation of violence at their disposal. > > The first thing you want to do is make sure that people see those signs. Then you have light signals or hand signals, you can tell people to slow down or to wait. > > **And then warning shots are probably the last resort before actually firing. And once you do fire, they’re firing at the engine block because they want to disable the vehicle.** > > \*\*Your intent is not to kill the drivers but to stop the vehicle from approaching you any closer and having the ability to blow up your unit, your squad or the entire checkpoint. \*\* Seems a reasonable system to me. You have a series of signs at intervals to the checkpoint. Barbed wire and presumably other road block type devices (he doesn’t really go into detail here unfortunately). You use light and hand signals to further help folks know to slow down. As a last resort you fire warning shots…at the engine block. Here is some additional dialogue between the commentator and Abrahams: > [@](#): > > MARGARET WARNER: **Mr. Abrahams, those sound like fairly reasonable and detailed procedures.** I think we can – I don’t know if we can stipulate, **but most of the press has said that this happened to be one of those mobile checkpoints that had only been set up 90 minutes earlier so it wasn’t well known.** > > But what more do you think U.S. soldiers could be doing to avoid, as you said, for people blundering into their own deaths? > > FRED ABRAHAMS: **Well, I want to make one thing very clear. You know, our report did not conclude that U.S. soldiers were deliberately targeting civilians. And we did not find any evidence to suggest that.** Anyway, I thank you Monocracy for the cite. Again I’m going to point out that, as far as the OP goes and what happened in this particular incident many of you are making assumptions by siding with one or the other parties telling THEIR side of the story. I think we can pretty much disreguard the tin foil part about the US wanting to kill this woman because of her opposition to Bush and her sooper sekirt information…if we wanted her dead we wouldn’t have killed the driver. At any rate, we simply don’t have enough data to go on as far as who was at fault…its whoever you believe, and I choose to believe none of them, having seen first hand how bad people are at observation under such conditions. Perhaps the investigation will find something…but I have my doubts there, and not due to any conspiricy by the US to keep the facts from getting to the public. As far as the hijack and tagos continued attempt to paint the US checkpoint system as seriously flawed, I’ve seen no real evidence of it. 11 civilian deaths over a 5 month period is certainly tragic…but it is somewhat to be expected in that kind of environment, especially where insurgents regularly dress up in civilian clothes and carry out suicide style attacks at those very checkpoints. In fact, as I said earlier, 11 deaths, or even bumping that up by multiplying it by 10 (as an estimate for how many have died since then…probably on the high side but what the hell) is a surprisingly small number of casualties considering…and considering the amount of traffic that goes through these checkpoints regularly (no data on this but I’ve seen cars lined up on news report going through such beasts regularly). -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/152 "2005-03-09T22:10:21Z")
BTW, since I wasn’t clear, the deaths were for Baghdad, not all of Iraq. However, considering the population density in and around Baghdad, and considering he didn’t give data on the rest of the country (again, better or worse? Makes you wonder why he didn’t trot out figures for the entire country though) I’d say this would be the heaviest area where such incidents would occur. Sorry though for not making that plainer in my post though…I see I’m implying this was for the whole country and I didn’t mean it to come across that way. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/153 "2005-03-09T22:20:09Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …- you’ve posted in this thread and the one in the Pit - in both cases highlighting the angle of ransom payments, and how they might not be in the interests of the US occupation. Or at the very least, evil in some way, and therefore deserving of a lethal outcome. _"deserving of a lethal outcome’_?? Where and what did you conjure that out of? Show me? --Well, what is it? Untwist them words **annapluralbelle** – Fan it out so I can count it – cause I don’t believe it’s all there. How do you get stuff like that out of ANY of my posts? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/154 "2005-03-09T22:22:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …if we wanted her dead we wouldn’t have killed the driver. You didn’t kill the driver. Calipari wasn’t the driver, he was in the backseat next to Sgrena, the journo who had been kidnapped. Have you read any of the cites? Sorry, but getting basic facts like this wrong makes me wonder how much of a handle you’ve got on this story. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/155 "2005-03-09T22:25:39Z")
I know this was directed at Tigers2B1 anna, but I’m going to give my two cents worth here. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Or, are you asking me to believe that two high level SISMI agents had no idea about the SOP at a US checkpoint, and the potential dangers therein, and therefore tried to speed through it??? Or, it could be that the Italians were unaware of this mobile checkpoints location, especially since they didn’t see fit to check through with US authorities before moving. It could be that they were surprised, and didn’t KNOW it was a US checkpoint, but thought they were being ambushed or something…or they just panicked. It could be that the US soldiers, seeing an unknown vehicle acting strangly got jumpy and decided to fire some warning shots into the engine to stop it, and a stray round killed the driver. Or it could be that the US soldiers were napping and caught by surprise, didn’t have signs out yet, didn’t actually try and flag down the car, and because they were jumpy reacted badly and opened fire. We simply don’t know, though I know where my own Occam’s Razor comes down on…but thats just me. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Stupid Italians? Evil Italians? What??? Well, assuming it was a fuckup by someone, I always like to say Stupid HUMANS…doing what stupid humans always do, fucking up. I don’t think there is enough evidence one way or the other to say WHO was being stupid here…if anyone. It could just as well simply be a tragic mistake after all…unavoidable when you consider the various factors going on there. annaplurabelle, I’m a bit confused here…help me out. Are you just speculating on how the US COULD have attempted to assassinate Guiliana Sgrena, or do you really believe the US DID try and assassinate her to prevent…whatever? -XT ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/156 "2005-03-09T22:27:27Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > _"deserving of a lethal outcome’_?? Where and what did you conjure that out of? Show me? --Well, what is it? Untwist them words **annapluralbelle** – Fan it out so I can count it – cause I don’t believe it’s all there. How do you get stuff like that out of ANY of my posts? You’re not answering my question, you’re not clever or amusing, and you can’t seem to spell my name correctly. Try again, or have a pleasant evening. Your talking points/sarcasm attempts are getting old. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/157 "2005-03-09T22:27:49Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > You didn’t kill the driver. > > Calipari wasn’t the driver, he was in the backseat next to Sgrena, the journo who had been kidnapped. > > Have you read any of the cites? Sorry, but getting basic facts like this wrong makes me wonder how much of a handle you’ve got on this story. Least we forget — you’re saddled with the theory of a sniper shooting “under cover” of gunfire – ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/158 "2005-03-09T22:29:41Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > You’re not answering my question, you’re not clever or amusing, and you can’t seem to spell my name correctly. > > Try again, or have a pleasant evening. Your talking points/sarcasm attempts are getting old. No - you seem to need the assistance of assigning positions to others that they don’t hold — So where did I make those statements? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/159 "2005-03-09T22:31:20Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > You didn’t kill the driver. > > Calipari wasn’t the driver, he was in the backseat next to Sgrena, the journo who had been kidnapped. > > Have you read any of the cites? Sorry, but getting basic facts like this wrong makes me wonder how much of a handle you’ve got on this story. Well, since you want to nitpick, I didn’t kill anyone. Yes, I’ve read the cites…my mistake, its been a couple of days and I do have other things on my mind besides this story. I was aware Calipari wasn’t the driver…just a slip there by calling him so. So, basically on this you are going to disreguard everything else I wrote ehe? Interesting. -XT ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355/160 "2005-03-09T22:35:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > annaplurabelle, I’m a bit confused here…help me out. Are you just speculating on how the US COULD have attempted to assassinate Guiliana Sgrena, or do you really believe the US DID try and assassinate her to prevent…whatever? > > -XT Did you read my post??? > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > He was a high level SISMI agent, with lots of contacts and experience in ME and elsewhere - a valuable asset. I’m only going by the chatter that is just beginning in Italy, but there are numerous reasons why it’s no surprise that he was hit. > > Again, just a guess (and I also guess we’ll never know the whole truth), but if it _was_ a hit with ‘intent’, **the target was Calipari**. > > Of course, **Sgrena is still a convenient target for some organised right-wing smearing, but that’s a red herring** , IMO. My emphasis. I don’t know how to answer you under the circumstances. Sorry if you’re a sloppy reader. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-freed-italian-hostages-guard-murdered-by-us-forces/293355.md?page=9)