# Was French ever really the "language of diplomacy?' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 22, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307 "2005-11-22T19:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/21 "2005-11-25T17:58:10Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > Quite agree but hey I never started it I just felt as an Englishman and damn proud of it that I had to fight back. What makes you think that ombre3 is an American? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/22 "2005-11-25T18:02:49Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] And why is “lingua Franca” an Italian prase? \*\* Because “lingua franca”, as far as I know, didnt refer to the french language but to some sort of pidgin. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/23 "2005-11-25T18:03:55Z")
> [@Slithy Tove](#): > > And why is “lingua Franca” an Italian prase? Because “lingua franca”, as far as I know, didnt refer originally to the french language but to some sort of pidgin. ---
**Author:** ![Clock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@Clock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clock)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/24 "2005-11-25T22:16:50Z")
> [@Scruloose](#): > > What makes you think that ombre3 is an American? What makes you think that I think he is an American? ☹ I never suggested he was, all I said was that I felt I had to fight back. Now don’t get me wrong, I have visited the USA many times, I have friends in Rhode Island, Michigan, Alabama and Maine. In all my visits I have only ever met ONE American who was obnoxious but he was drunk so I guess that doesn’t count…or does it? :dubious: In short I like you guys, I like your country, I like your grub and I love the friendliness and openness of Americans which is something you don’t find in abundance here in Merrie England, we tend to be a tad reserved around strangers. Your beer sucks tho’ especially that Sam Adams rubbish I had in Chicago 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/25 "2005-11-25T22:31:12Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > What makes you think that I think he is an American? ☹ The fact that the target of your ‘fighting back’ was the ‘GOOD old U S of A’. That much is obvious. Perhaps your ‘fighting back’ should be aimed at the poster and/or their comments, not an entire country of which the poster may or may not be a citizen of. And perhaps another forum for that would be in order. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/26 "2005-11-25T22:32:15Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Because “lingua franca”, as far as I know, didnt refer originally to the french language but to some sort of pidgin. After checking it out, the “lingua franca” was indeed a pidgin, mostly Italian mixed with various other languages from around the Mediterranean sea. So, it made sense for it to have an Italian name. I’ve no clue why it was called “lingua franca”, though. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/27 "2005-11-26T09:29:43Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’ve no clue why it was called “lingua franca”, though. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, “lingua franca” means “Frankish tongue”, i.e., the language of the Franks – the Germanic people who invaded Gaul and renamed it France (just as the Germanic Angles invaded southern Britain and renamed it England). ---
**Author:** ![Clock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@Clock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clock)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/28 "2005-11-26T13:26:01Z")
> [@Scruloose](#): > > The fact that the target of your ‘fighting back’ was the ‘GOOD old U S of A’. That much is obvious. > > Perhaps your ‘fighting back’ should be aimed at the poster and/or their comments, not an entire country of which the poster may or may not be a citizen of. And perhaps another forum for that would be in order. Just saying. Read between the lines my friend…the initial post that sparked my fight back was posted by ombre3 wherein he described England as a dinky little island of no importance whatsoever. Later he described GREAT Britain as being an oxymoron quite obviously being unaware that Great Britain refers to the Nation as a whole rather than, as he seems to think, Great as in powerful…we were once y’know! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/29 "2005-11-26T13:30:21Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > According to the Oxford English Dictionary, “lingua franca” means “Frankish tongue”, i.e., the language of the Franks – the Germanic people who invaded Gaul and renamed it France (just as the Germanic Angles invaded southern Britain and renamed it England). Hmmm…Which doesn’t make much sense, given that the language was mostly based on Italian, was used by mediterranean traders, and long after the franks (and their language) had dissapeared… Any further explanation about this? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/30 "2005-11-27T18:03:47Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Hmmm…Which doesn’t make much sense, given that the language was mostly based on Italian, was used by mediterranean traders, and long after the franks (and their language) had dissapeared… > Any further explanation about this? As a stab in the dark, how about the ‘Lingua Franca’ being a retention from the Roman days, when it might have meant the pidgin used by traders dealing with the assorted barbarians around the Med? Pure speculation, but it seems reasonable. > [@Tristan](#): > > Being a history major, I find this incredibly interesting. I’ve been tracking the interesting phenomenon of a vast number of peoples/nations that use a totally different language for political purposes. > > Seems to be a common thread throughout European history. I find it interesting too, but it’s not really that mysterious, or a European phenomenon. Anywhere you have different communities with different languages you are going to need a common standard of communication. Very often that will be everyone’s second language rather than their first. In early Europe, most of the elite knew some latin, so that was the standard. This was gradually replaced by French, which in turn is being replaced by English. In China, Mandarin has been the standard by which the various provinces can stay in touch for a very long time. That assumes people know a gramatically correct language which can be conveniently used for communication. Outside the elite, that’s normally not true, so traders make up pidgin languages - not really suitable for elegant diplomatic communication, but good enough for day-to-day life. The fact that everyone ascribes so much emotional and political baggage to these simple practicalities is just one of those things that makes me go :rolleyes: > [@Slithy Tove](#): > > You’d think that any self-respecting lingua Franca’s name for itself would be in lingua Franca. Well, given that pidgin languages are usually made up exclusively of words pinched from other languages, I don’t see anything unusual with using a borrowed bit of italian/latin to describe it. It’s not like these things are drawn up by a committee of linguists somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/31 "2005-11-27T20:57:11Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Was French ever really the language of diplomacy? If so was it before or after the Congress of Vienna? If after was it due to Talleyrand’s coup? > thanks, > hh Well, during the Enlightenment of the 18th century, French came to be seen as the center of intellectual and cultural activity, and numerous royals around Europe became boith Francophones and Francophiles. Frederick the Great of PRussia and Russia’s Empress Catherine the GReat embrace all things French wholeheartedly, and French became the fashionable language in their courts. So, even before the Congress of Vienna, you’d have found many/most of the leading royals and aristocrats around Europe speaking French. That made it a very PRACTICAL choice as the language of diplomacy. ---
**Author:** ![Drake\_Tungsten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@Drake\_Tungsten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drake_Tungsten)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/32 "2005-11-27T22:48:36Z")
According to the American Heritage Dictionary as conveyed by [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lingua%20franca), lingua franca is a mixture of primarily Italian with Provencal, French, Arabic, Greek, and Turkish thrown into the mix. It was the language of traders, thus ingua franca has come to mean a common language used to communicate between speakers of different languages. This reminds me of the street language in Blade Runner that mixed English, Japanese, German, and Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307/33 "2005-11-29T19:08:58Z")
\ Now let’s all play nice here. Those who wish to argue about the merits of England vs. the USA or other countries, please take it to the Pit, where it belongs. We’ll be keeping a close eye on this thread, so keep it on topic or we’ll have to close. No second warnings, OK? \ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-french-ever-really-the-language-of-diplomacy/332307.md?page=1)