# Was General Bernard Montgomery worth a shit?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 22, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353 "2014-06-22T05:54:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/101 "2014-06-30T16:30:29Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> Please provide the sources where Montgomery said/wrote/claimed/hinted any such thing.
His letter to Eisenhower demanding command of the ground forces in Europe that almost cost him his job.
He also chafed when Eisenhower was put in overall command. _sniff_, sniff\* Smells like Haig…
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/102 "2014-06-30T16:53:23Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> I don’t even understand what point you were trying to make, actually.
At last we agree on something. I can’t make nead nor tail of your poijnt either.
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/103 "2014-06-30T16:56:32Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> His letter to Eisenhower demanding command of the ground forces in Europe that almost cost him his job.
I rather expected you to post this letter. Until such time I will treat your claim as an unsourced allegation.
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> He also chafed when Eisenhower was put in overall command. _sniff_, sniff\* Smells like Haig…
Smell more of the desperation of someone completely without evidence to back his ealier claims.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/104 "2014-06-30T17:17:26Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> I rather expected you to post this letter. Until such time I will treat your claim as an unsourced allegation.
You want me to post the actual letter? The one Montgomery requested Ike tear up when he realized that it might cost him his job? The one he had to send an apology letter over?
> [@](#):
>
> Smell more of the desperation of someone completely without evidence to back his ealier claims.
Right. Sure. There was no such letter from Montgomery to Ike on 12/29/44. I made it up. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/105 "2014-06-30T17:21:25Z")
I said post it. Once we see it we can form our own conclusions. Is this a problem for you?
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/106 "2014-06-30T17:30:57Z")
The German view from “The Other Side of the Hill” -
“\*All the German generals to whom I talked were of the opinion that the Allied Supreme Command had missed a great opportunity of ending the war in the autumn of 1944. They agreed with Montgomery’s view that this could best have been achieved by concentrating all possible resources in a thrust in the north, towards Berlin.”
von Rundstedt: “the best course of the Allies would have been to concentrate a really strong striking force with which to break through past Aachen to the Ruhr area. Strategically and politically, Berlin was the target. Germany’s strength is in the north. He who holds northern Germany holds Germany. Such a break-through, coupled with air domination, would have torn in pieces the weak German front and ended the war.”
von Manteuffel: “I am in full agreement with Montgomery. I believe General Eisenhower’s insistence on spreading the Allied forces out for a broader advance was wrong. The acceptance of Montgomery’s plans would have shortened the war considerably. Above all, tens of thousands of lives - on both sides - would have been saved.”\*
Now that does not mean I am saying it was the correct view but the claim Montgomery was copletely wrong is arguable. Outright condemnation that the plan as unworkable is not credible.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/107 "2014-06-30T18:06:17Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> I said post it. Once we see it we can form our own conclusions. Is this a problem for you?
I am merely stunned that you seem either unaware of this letter’s existence or are trying to play some kind of ‘gotcha’ game that I cannot fathom.
TTBOMK the letter may no longer exist, only excerpts. However it is referenced is several WW2 texts, mostly formed out of interviews from:
In any case, [here is a description of events](http://books.google.com/books?id=1XWpHOgXXT8C&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=Francis+de+Guingand+Letter&source=bl&ots=oBMWSYrP9a&sig=ILtY6s5aI1tLN5TWq-Eno94lKc0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UZyxU5PTDtK_sQTAvICoCQ&ved=0CFcQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=Francis%20de%20Guingand%20Letter&f=false): (google books link).
Take note of his mention of ‘failure’, as the Bulge had already been blunted. He was making a mockery of either the American troops or American Generals. Either way he was being an ass.
There are many other references.
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/108 "2014-06-30T18:26:16Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> I am merely stunned that you seem either unaware of this letter’s existence or are trying to play some kind of ‘gotcha’ game that I cannot fathom.
You would be surprised at the number of ‘facts’ people quote which are no such thing. Only by seeing the actual letter can you make an informed opinion as to its contents.
I am sorry to say your frantic Google did not produce the goods. Where is the letter that shows Monty \*\*‘demanding command of the ground forces in Europe \*\*’
Reference your claim or withdraw it.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/109 "2014-06-30T18:29:24Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> You would be surprised at the number of ‘facts’ people quote which are no such thing. Only by seeing the actual letter can you make an informed opinion as to its contents.
> I am sorry to say your frantic Google did not produce the goods. Where is the letter that shows Monty \*\*‘demanding command of the ground forces in Europe \*\*’
>
> Reference your claim or withdraw it.
I just did.
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/110 "2014-06-30T18:30:16Z")
> [@Child Sponsorship](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/child-sponsorship/89457/3):
>
> here are many other references.
Thats what you said about the original letter. Now it seems you claim it no longer exists…
Please post these _‘many other references’_
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/111 "2014-06-30T18:33:40Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> I just did.
No you did not. What you did was post a vague comment on a letter that no longer exists(?) that you have never seen and that you can not quote directly.
Let me make it clear for you. You need to quote the exact words where we can see Monty ' **demanding command of the ground forces in Europe ’**
I am afraid it is up to those making aclaim to reference it.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/112 "2014-06-30T18:53:50Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> No you did not. What you did was post a vague comment on a letter that no longer exists(?) that you have never seen and that you can not quote directly.
>
> Let me make it clear for you. You need to quote the exact words where we can see Monty ' **demanding command of the ground forces in Europe ’**
>
> I am afraid it is up to those making aclaim to reference it.
You are basically asking me to fully quote a document that may no longer physically exist, but is referenced by several sources who were present, including Montgomery’s chief of staff, acknowledge the existence of. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/113 "2014-06-30T19:01:29Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> You are basically asking me to fully quote a document that may no longer physically exist, but is referenced by several sources who were present, including Montgomery’s chief of staff, acknowledge the existence of. :rolleyes:
No. You made a specific claim that Monty\*\* demanded \*\*command. That is simply not true. I say that with complete confidence. I am 100% sure you can not give me the quote because it was never made. I can not be any clearer.
You must realise that anything you read in a US General memoirs is just as self-serving as that written by any other nations Generals. Make sure you know his agenda before accepting his conclusions.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/114 "2014-06-30T19:03:12Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> The German view from “The Other Side of the Hill” -
> “\*All the German generals to whom I talked were of the opinion that the Allied Supreme Command had missed a great opportunity of ending the war in the autumn of 1944. They agreed with Montgomery’s view that this could best have been achieved by concentrating all possible resources in a thrust in the north, towards Berlin.”
>
> von Rundstedt: “the best course of the Allies would have been to concentrate a really strong striking force with which to break through past Aachen to the Ruhr area. Strategically and politically, Berlin was the target. Germany’s strength is in the north. He who holds northern Germany holds Germany. Such a break-through, coupled with air domination, would have torn in pieces the weak German front and ended the war.”
>
> von Manteuffel: “I am in full agreement with Montgomery. I believe General Eisenhower’s insistence on spreading the Allied forces out for a broader advance was wrong. The acceptance of Montgomery’s plans would have shortened the war considerably. Above all, tens of thousands of lives - on both sides - would have been saved.”\*
>
> Now that does not mean I am saying it was the correct view but the claim Montgomery was copletely wrong is arguable. Outright condemnation that the plan as unworkable is not credible.
These Generals are grossly overrating the state of the Allied forces in the Autumn of 1944. Supply issues, manpower issues the need for defense along the rest of the front, and still operating German garrisons would have doomed such a strike. That is even before we consider that Germans were pretty good at adapting defenses.
Montgomery’s attack might have worked, certainly. So might have Patton’s or BRadley’s single attack plans. Or they might have been crushed.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/115 "2014-06-30T19:07:17Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> No. You made a specific claim that Monty\*\* demanded \*\*command. That is simply not true. I say that with complete confidence. I am 100% sure you can not give me the quote because it was never made. I can not be any clearer.
Ah, so poor Montgomery was merely misnuderstood and that is why his Chief of Staff went running to him to advise him to apologize to Ike rather than staying with Ike and explaining that it was just a misunderstanding. Sure.
> [@](#):
>
> You must realise that anything you read in a US General memoirs is just as self-serving as that written by any other nations Generals. Make sure you know his agenda before accepting his conclusions.
Who are you referring to? de Guingand?
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### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/116 "2014-06-30T19:29:42Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> Ah, so poor Montgomery was merely misnuderstood and that is why his Chief of Staff went running to him to advise him to apologize to Ike rather than staying with Ike and explaining that it was just a misunderstanding. Sure.
Well as you have yet to post any evidence of Monty **demanding command of the ground forces in Europe** we will have to withold judgement on that subject.
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> Who are you referring to? de Guingand?
Because no US General ever told anything but the honest truth?
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### Author:  [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/117 "2014-06-30T22:03:14Z")
> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> …Are you back again trying to string together non sequiturs? There is only one question to what you are actually responding to this time: did Monty allow the 15th Army to escape and fortify itself in the Scheldt Estuary? The answer, by Monty’s own admission, is yes. The other two questions have already been asked and answered repeatedly. Yes, Monty was worth a shit as a military leader, and yes, Market-Garden delayed the clearing of the Scheldt Estuary by weeks. I have no idea why you are continuing to imply that serious action was taken to clear the Scheldt Estuary before the launching of the offensive to clear it on October 2nd in defiance of the actual historical record. First you provide a garbled cite poorly translated into English that doesn’t even make grammatical sense, and now you seem to think that “the division reached the Ghent Canal on 8 September, hitting the first of the Scheldt Fortress defences” means successful offensive operations were conducted against them. It doesn’t. It means the division encountered the first of the Scheldt Fortress defenses on that date. You’ll note the following sentences include “More fighting to clear water obstacles south of the Scheldt followed, at Moerkerke and Eecloo.” Considering that the 15th Army had escaped to and had fortified itself on the north bank of the Scheldt, I again have no idea what you think you are pointing out.
(post shortened)
What you call non sequiturs, I call 1944 WWII Allied troop movements in Europe. The Scheldt would have been liberated regardless of whether Market-Garden succeeded, failed, or had never been conceived.
Montgomery had ordered the 1st Canadian Army to accelerate it’s advance to the Scheldt in August. The month before Market-Garden began. The entrenched Nazis along the coast had been strongly objecting to Allied efforts to evicted them.
The fact that “the division reached the Ghent Canal on 8 September, hitting the first of the Scheldt Fortress defences” DOES NOT mean that successful offensive operations were conducted against them. If a successful offensive had been achieved, successive operations would not have been necessary.
The 15th Army had quite a bit of input on whether their escape would be effective or not. It would have been unwise for the Canadians to bypass the entrenched Nazis located to the south of the Scheldt in order to engage the entrenched Nazis to the north of the Scheldt.
The Scheldt eventually became a MAJOR battlefield on Oct 2nd but Canadians and Germans had already been shooting at each other over possession of the area before that date.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/118 "2014-07-01T00:19:54Z")
> [@Hugo\_First](#):
>
> Well as you have yet to post any evidence of Monty **demanding command of the ground forces in Europe** we will have to withold judgement on that subject.
Here’s the letter he’s referring to, from Monty’s memoirs…it starts on the bottom of page 286:
[http://www.mocavo.com/The-Memoirs-of-Field-Marshal-the-Viscount-Montgomery-of-Alamein/216599/287#286](http://www.mocavo.com/The-Memoirs-of-Field-Marshal-the-Viscount-Montgomery-of-Alamein/216599/287#286)
Notes in brackets are mine.
> [@](#):
>
> My dear Ike,
>
> It was very pleasant to see you again yesterday and have a talk on the battle situation.
>
> 1. I would like to refer to the matter of operational control of all forces engaged in the northern thrust to the Ruhr, i.e., 12th and 21st Army Groups [12th Army Group was commanded by Bradley, 21st by Montgomery-CA]
>
> I think we want to be careful, because we have had one very definite failure when we tried to produce a formula that would meet this case; that was the formula produced in SHAEF FW D 15510 dated 23-9-44, which formula very definitely did not work.
>
> 1. When you and Bradley and myself met at Maastricht on 7 December, it was very clear to me that Bradley opposed any idea that I should have operational control over his Army Group; so I did not then pursue the subject. I therefore consider that it will be necessary for you to be very firm on the subject, and any loosely worded statement will be quite useless\*
>
> 2. I consider that if you merely use the word ‘co-ordination’ it will not work. The person designated by you must have powers of operational direction and control of the operations that will follow on your directive.
>
> 3. I would say that your directive will assign tasks and objectives to the two Army Groups, allot boundaries, and so on. Thereafter preparations are made and battle is joined. It is then that one commander must have powers to direct and control the operations; you cannot possibly do it yourself, and so you would have to nominate someone else.
>
> 4. I suggest that your directive should finish with this sentence:
> ‘12th and 21 Army Groups w ill develop operations in accordance with the above instructions. From now onwards full operational direction, control, and cordination of these operations is vested in the C.-in-C. 21 Army Group [Monty-CA], subject to such instructions as may be issued by the Supreme Commander from time to time’
>
> 5. I put this matter up to you again only because I am so anxious not to have another failure.
> I am absolutely convinced that the key to success lies in:
>
> (a) all available offensive power being assigned to the northern line of advance to the Ruhr;
>
> (b) a sound set-up for command, and this implies one man directing and controlling the whole tactical battle on the northern thrust.
>
> I am certain that if we do not comply with these two basic conditions, then we will fail again.
>
> 1. I would be grateful if you would not mention to Bradley the point I have referred to in para. 3. I would not like him to think that I remembered that point and had brought it up.
>
> Yours always, and your very devoted friend,
> Monty”
So, I think there’s a little bit of a misunderstanding here. He didn’t want command over all ground forces in Europe. That was Eisenhower’s job, and Monty knew that, and knew there was no way he was going to get it. He wanted command over Bradley’s army. Both he and Bradley had coequal commands, and had to coordinate operations, which didn’t always go well. (it also didn’t help that he and Bradley didn’t get along, and he and Bradley had been constantly fighting over their respective roles.)
I don’t know whether Monty’s request was a good one or a bad one from a military standpoint, but it caused a political firestorm with the Americans, because word of it got back to Washington, and the Americans didn’t want an American army serving under a British command.
So, Montgomery, realizing too late the political firestorm over his letter, sent the following telegram to Ike, trying to walk back his remarks:
> [@](#):
>
> “Dear Ike, I have seen Freddie [Sir Francis de Guingand, Monty’s Chief of Staff, who had been at SHAEF headquarters and had a heated conversation with Eisenhower about the letter-CA] and understand you are greatly worried by many considerations in these very difficult days. I have given you my frank views because I have felt you like this. I am sure there are many factors which have a bearing quite beyond anything I realise. Whatever your decision may be you can rely on me one hundred per cent to make it work and I know Brad will do the same. Very distressed that my letter may have upset you and I would ask you to tear it up.
>
> Your very devoted subordinate
> Monty.”
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/119 "2014-07-01T00:40:00Z")
My criticisms of Monty earlier in the thread, not withstanding, I actually agree with **Malden Capell**. Monty made some mistakes, like Caen and Market-Garden. He had some successes, like El Alamein, Tunisia, and Italy, where, for all the problems with the campaign, he did well.
Monty’s strengths were that he was a good organizer, that he could simplify overcomplicated plans and uncover what objectives were really necessary and what weren’t, and that he had an almost inate understanding of concentration of force, so that when given the resources, he could find weaknesses in the enemy line and break it. His weaknesses were that he didn’t do well against superior force, he was not particularly operationally flexible, and he was an arrogant, sarcastic son of a bitch who didn’t get along well with his subordinates, his colleagues or his superiors.
That being said, while I don’t think he was the best British general in WWII (I’d give that honor to General Slim), he wasn’t bad.
---
### Author:  [@Hugo\_First](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugo_First)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-bernard-montgomery-worth-a-shit/691353/120 "2014-07-01T02:07:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> So, I think there’s a little bit of a misunderstanding here. **He didn’t want command over all ground forces in Europe.**
I knew that. However there are many (the majority?) who are willing to believe any charge levelled against Montgomery.
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> That was Eisenhower’s job, and Monty knew that, and knew there was no way he was going to get it. He wanted command over Bradley’s army. Both he and Bradley had coequal commands, and had to coordinate operations, which didn’t always go well. (it also didn’t help that he and Bradley didn’t get along, and he and Bradley had been constantly fighting over their respective roles.)
>
> I don’t know whether Monty’s request was a good one or a bad one from a military standpoint, but it caused a political firestorm with the Americans, because word of it got back to Washington, and the Americans didn’t want an American army serving under a British command.
>
> So, Montgomery, realizing too late the political firestorm over his letter, sent the following telegram to Ike, trying to walk back his remarks:
You hit the nail right on the head. Montgomery could have been the best Allied General by a factor of 10 but no way was he going to be allowed a major position in charge of American Forces. The whole storm was political and nothing to do with ability.
Montgomery was so convinced that a single ground Commander was needed (to be no 2 to Ike) that he made it quite clear he would serve under any such commander if he were appointed. To be sure he thought he was the best man for the job but he was big enough to accept someone else in the job.
A lot of people do not know that Montgomery was the Ground Commander in Normandy up to late August.
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