# Was General Lee Wrong For Continuing To Fight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645 "2015-06-04T17:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/101 "2015-06-13T00:28:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > While I wouldn’t class either man as “evil”, I wouldn’t class either as “hero” either, like **LinusK** did. Both betrayed their own side, after all. But both were heroic before that (I’d argue Arnold _more so_ in the sense that the Revolutionary War was a “better” war than the Mexican War). But if **Linus** considers Lee a hero, I’d want to know his reason for not considering Arnold one, too. Lee didn’t betray his side: his side was Virginia. I can’t speak as to Arnold. I was obsessed with the Civil War for a number of years. For whatever reason, I’ve never been as interested in the Revolution. I would ask though, in the same vein, if the colonists were patriots for seceding from Great Britain, why where the Confederates traitors for seceding from the Union? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/102 "2015-06-13T01:13:02Z")
One really big difference is that the southern states, and the citizens thereof, already had the rights that the colonies rebelled over not having. Virginia had exactly as much representation in the U.S. as they had contracted for. They had their two Senators and however many members of the House. (Based on apportionment that included 3/5 of their slaves.) They were “renegades” for reneging on a contract they’d agreed to. (“I, the undersigned, agree to repay the finances of four thousand dollars, at fifty dollars per month, against three per cent interest per annum…as long as I feel like it.” Not much of a contract.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/103 "2015-06-13T04:11:24Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Every general always wanted more troops. Lee himself always fought outmanned, outgunned, and undersupplied. Typically his troop strength was between one-half and three- quarters of the enemy’s. Nevertheless, he usually won victories. To take troops from your most able general and send them to less-able generals, seems like generally a bad idea. Perhaps, but Lee made a massive mistake by essentially abandoning Vicksburg so he could go on a badly-planned expedition into hostile territory. > [@](#): > > Finally, however important was Vicksburg- and I agree it was important - it was less important than Richmond. Richmond was both the capital, and the industrial and financial center of the South. I’m not so sure. When Vicksburg was taken, it severed the Confederacy in two, handed the entire Mississippi over to the Union, who now had control of not only that river but all its major tributaries, which provided military access to a massive portion for the South, restricted Southern movements and dealt a crippling blow economically, resulted in the second loss of an entire army, and actually caused a _gain_ in Union economic strength as the Midwest could trade through New Orleans again. So yeah. It was probably the single worst loss the Confederacy suffered. While you are correct in saying Richmond was the main site of Confederate war manufacturing, that was largely because the Confederacy chose to site much of its war industry there, and because so much had already been captured or destroyed by the Union. New Orleans wasn’t a huge manufacturing town, but it was still pretty important. However, with the loss of Nashville and Jackson, the Confederates were getting pretty thin on factories. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Would not the Union gunners have spiked their guns as their last act before retreating/fleeing? Yes, they would have. Provided they didn’t just roll the guns away beforehand. Even if they hadn’t, it was improbable that Pickett would have: (1) Accomplished the charge, (2) With his command intact, (3) Advancing so fast they captured the guns and limber chests, (3) Be in such a shape as to resist the counter-attack. (4) And had to skills and organization to then deploy the guns to deadly effect. of those events happened \*at times \*in the Civil War, but never all at once. Unfortunately, Lee was convinced that he could destroy the entire Union Army, and failed to realize that he was instead destroying his own. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/104 "2015-06-13T04:20:51Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Lee didn’t betray his side: his side was Virginia. > > I can’t speak as to Arnold. I was obsessed with the Civil War for a number of years. For whatever reason, I’ve never been as interested in the Revolution. > > I would ask though, in the same vein, if the colonists were patriots for seceding from Great Britain, why where the Confederates traitors for seceding from the Union? The Colonials were patriots to America and traitors to Britain. The Confederates were patriots to the Confederacy and traitors to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/105 "2015-06-13T05:12:43Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Perhaps, but Lee made a massive mistake by essentially abandoning Vicksburg so he could go on a badly-planned expedition into hostile territory. Oh, for crying out loud!!! Once and for all, people– **Lee was not responsible for areas outside his theater of operations!!!** ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/106 "2015-06-13T07:20:12Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Perhaps, but Lee made a massive mistake by essentially abandoning Vicksburg so he could go on a badly-planned expedition into hostile territory. Lee did not become General-in-Chief of all Confederate forces until January 1865. Before that, he was Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, and that’s all. He had exactly zero to do with Vicksburg. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/107 "2015-06-13T08:04:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll say this for Lee; he changed sides openly. Arnold switched over to the British side while pretending he was still fighting on the American side. So, in my opinion, Arnold’s betrayal was objectively worse than Lee’s. Actual betrayal, worse yes. Actions after the betrayal, I don’t agree. Warring against your side is worse than passing information, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/108 "2015-06-13T08:13:25Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Lee didn’t betray his side: his side was Virginia. Did he fight for Virginia in the Mexican war? Was West Point a Virginia state institution when he ran it? Which side was he on when Texas seceded and he abandoned Fort Mason? Was he an officer of the United States Army at the actual start of the Civil War? > [@](#): > > I would ask though, in the same vein, if the colonists were patriots for seceding from Great Britain, why where the Confederates traitors for seceding from the Union? The colonists _were_ traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/109 "2015-06-13T12:18:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Actual betrayal, worse yes. Actions after the betrayal, I don’t agree. Warring against your side is worse than passing information, IMO. Arnold did a fair bit of warring against the colonies. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/110 "2015-06-13T15:50:27Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Lee was not responsible for areas outside his theater of operations!!! > [@colobri](#): > > Lee did not become General-in-Chief of all Confederate forces until January 1865. Before that, he was Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, and that’s all. He had exactly zero to do with Vicksburg. That is not altogether true. Jefferson Davis wanted to send more troops, but Lee convinced him otherwise. The two men met after Grant had attacked Vicksburg, but before Lee left for Pennsylvania - and this was when Lee set in motion the events that would lead to Gettysburg. In the process, he also persuaded Davis from splitting off any men for Johnson, which was his stated plan. In fact, he actually pulled _additional_ troops away from other fronts. Lee apparently didn’t consider the importance of Vicksburg and actually stated that the “climate in June would force the enemy to retire”, one of the most farcical notions ever bandied about in wartime. And there’s the rub - you can argue that Davis should have been more thoughtful, but you can’t deny that Lee had special significance owing to his dramatic successes. The Confederate government essentially was unwilling to deny him anything, and Lee did not use that influence wisely. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/111 "2015-06-13T18:46:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > … > The colonists _were_ traitors. Ahhh ok, I get it now, are you just not a big believer in the social contract of government or individual or member-state’s rights to break away when it is perceived that government isn’t living up to its end of the contract? Very well, I accept the logic of your assessment of Lee based given your definition of traitor. I suppose it is technically correct (the best kind of correct!) I suppose King John’s barons were also traitors then, and the members of the communist revolution, and those pesky Indians advocating for their freedom from the British, and the Normans in general when they became an autonomous country from France, and well the thing in South Africa and pretty much anybody ever dissenting from a nominally in charge government however ludicrous its rule. Horrendous traitors… all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/112 "2015-06-13T19:55:58Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > I suppose King John’s barons were also traitors then. Actually, I don’t think rebelling against the King was treason in English law until the 14th century. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/113 "2015-06-13T21:18:19Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Lee sent approximately 20,000 men against 5000. The idea, I think, is that had they succeeded, they would have turned the Union guns there against the lines on both sides, creating enfilading fire against the Union lines. The Union troops would not be able to stay in their positions under those circumstances- they would have to flee, and/or form new lines. But the new lines - assuming they’d been able to form them - would necessarily have left and right flanks, respectively, open to fire and/or attack from the rest of Lee’s army. > > I’ve always assumed, that had attack on the center worked, Lee would have sent every available body forward to reinforce it. I think it’s a plan that could have worked. It didn’t, of course. The rebs actually did capture cannons where they broke through the Union lines, and turned them against the Union positions. Except it did them no good, because there was no ammunition. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/114 "2015-06-13T21:23:09Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Ahhh ok, I get it now, are you just not a big believer in the social contract of government or individual or member-state’s rights to break away when it is perceived that government isn’t living up to its end of the contract? Some would say the difference between a traitor and a freedom fighter often boils down to who won. Others would say it’s a matter of “the cause being just and the quarrel honourable” or not. But then again, that’s most often argued out by the people who are still around after the smoke clears. One country surrenders when they’re obviously beat, rather than be destroyed, and are berated for it; another fights to the last man and are called “fanatical”. (FWIW I happen to believe the South’s grievances and cause were _not_ worth the decisions taken by the seccessionist states, and it’s shameful that hundreds of thousands of men died gallantly in the name of a worthless cause.But that’s just IMO.) And of course from our +150 year later POV, there are those to whom the notion of primary loyalty to Virginia over the USA sounds like loyalty to the Sunrise Acres Mall or to the Rivershore Park Lawn. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/115 "2015-06-14T12:56:18Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (FWIW I happen to believe the South’s grievances and cause were _not_ worth the decisions taken by the seccessionist states, and it’s shameful that hundreds of thousands of men died gallantly in the name of a worthless cause.But that’s just IMO.) > > And of course from our +150 year later POV, there are those to whom the notion of primary loyalty to Virginia over the USA sounds like loyalty to the Sunrise Acres Mall or to the Rivershore Park Lawn. Heartily agree. I apologize if I’ve been overzealous in this “great debate”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/116 "2015-06-14T18:58:32Z")
I think Lee should have resigned after Gettysburg. All that could be done after this, was to kill more men…Union and Confederate, to no good end. I wonder how many lives would have been saved, had hostilities ended then? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/117 "2015-06-14T19:33:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Lee didn’t betray his side: his side was Virginia. He held a commission in the US army and took a oath to protect and defend the US Constitution: \*I, \_\_\_\_\_, appointed a \_\_\_\_\_ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States." \* He violated that oath, thus he was a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/118 "2015-06-14T20:29:11Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Ahhh ok, I get it now, are you just not a big believer in the social contract of government or individual or member-state’s rights to break away when it is perceived that government isn’t living up to its end of the contract? I’m a ‘believer’ in it (when the cause is just) I just don’t see a need to name it other than what it is. > [@](#): > > I suppose King John’s barons were also traitors then By the time of the Barons’ War, definitely. Especially when they invited a _Frenchman_ to lead them. > [@](#): > > , and the members of the communist revolution Which one? > [@](#): > > , and those pesky Indians advocating for their freedom from the British No. That’s resistance to occupiers, not betrayal of your own sworn oaths. > [@](#): > > , and the Normans in general when they became an autonomous country from France Nope, Normandy was a barony in its own right, not outright the king’s domain. William had title to England, the King of France didn’t, AFAIK. > [@](#): > > , and well the thing in South Africa You mean the time elements of the Union army tried to fight for the Nazis? Yeah, they were traitors. Or did you mean resistance to Apartheid? Naah, see my answer for Indians… > [@](#): > > and pretty much anybody ever dissenting from a nominally in charge government however ludicrous its rule. Horrendous traitors… all of them. No, see, there’s a difference between resistance and dissent. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/119 "2015-06-14T20:29:38Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Heartily agree. I apologize if I’ve been overzealous in this “great debate”. Your “recent unpleasantness” shall soon be forgotten 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645/120 "2015-06-14T20:32:20Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Arnold did a fair bit of warring against the colonies. See, I did not know that. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-general-lee-wrong-for-continuing-to-fight/721645.md?page=7)