# Was George W Bush That Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740 "2010-02-12T18:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/181 "2010-02-16T02:41:41Z")
They drove the educated and the professionals out of Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in other countries afraid to come home. Lebanon ,Syria and other countries around the mid east would love to see them go home. But the bastion of safety and freedom that Curtis sees, is not seen that way by those who actually live there. Iraq is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/182 "2010-02-16T02:43:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Think about it logically. Had a million Iraqis (primarily young males) had died than we would have seen a complete societal and economical collapse. :rolleyes: Not all of them were males, and I base my logic on what took place in El Salvador, The levels of relative peace of today can be explained by the ethnic cleansing and effectiveness of the death squads. And I do remember reading about the reconstruction efforts suffering because the ones with the knowledge to man the reconstructed buildings and organizations are missing. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well than how does that contrast Al Gore’s decision to drag out the election? Yes he won the popular vote-but that isn’t what the Constitution says. And here you are forgetting history, it was the decision of Florida too, and even though the final count could had benefited Bush, it was clear to me that the true will of the Floridians was thwarted by butterfly ballots, chads and voter registration shenanigans. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Look I never thought that Democrats think that somehow Bush caused a hurricane to appear-that’s laughable. [QUOTE=Curtis LeMay] Plus if you’re going to blame Bush for Katrina ( **a natural disaster** ) than certainly Buchanan should be blamed for the Civil War (a man-made event). [/quote] Bolding mine, really, what you where thinking? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/183 "2010-02-16T02:50:01Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Far, far worse than that. Plus if those surveys are true the overwhelming majority of deaths haven’t been reported to authorities. That is precisely what took place in El Salvador, most victims were never acknowledged by the authorities. As the same pacification plan was applied in Iraq, I made an estimate based on the proportion of the population of El Salvador and applied to Iraq, I came with more than 300,000 people dead, and not by warfare and it was before the surveys came out. A million is not impossible as one has to add ethnic cleansing to the equation in the case of Iraq. Of course, it is not our direct fault. But we did unleash the dogs of war. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/184 "2010-02-16T02:50:20Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus if those surveys are true the overwhelming majority of deaths haven’t been reported to authorities. Well, of course. Authorities that barely exist, widely regarded as illegitimate collaborators, may well be the perpetrators, may well be the victims; you can expect that a great many people just dropped the bodies in a river or buried them in their backyard or some such. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/185 "2010-02-16T03:05:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Of course a lot of those 100,000 votes (if the allegations are true) could have been faked or Nixon votes destroyed and so on. What allegations are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/186 "2010-02-16T03:12:35Z")
Bush/Cheney spent human lives like they spent tax payer money. Deficits and lives don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/187 "2010-02-16T03:41:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Again the majority of the killings were done by the militias and other non Americans. This makes no difference be it true or false. They’re still dead as a result of your invasion. > [@](#): > > And many of the civilian deaths were accidental-natural in war. Oh, well I guess their deaths are okay then. If you didn’t _mean_ to kill them while you invaded their country under false pretenses I guess I should hold the fact you dropped bombs on them against you. No, Bush got all those people killed for no reason. If you supported Bush, you support killing for people for no reason. “Oh well, war’s a bitch” will not cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/188 "2010-02-16T05:47:23Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > What allegations are you talking about? If Illinois had gone Republican, Nixon would have won. Let’s just say that Nixon had some legitimate doubts about the fairness of vote counting in Chicago (it was Mayor Daley, after all) but decided not to argue it for the good of the country. I hadn’t heard that the plurality was the deciding factor, but that makes sense. This is yet another case where Nixon was better than Bush. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/189 "2010-02-16T05:56:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If Illinois had gone Republican, Nixon would have won. Let’s just say that Nixon had some legitimate doubts about the fairness of vote counting in Chicago (it was Mayor Daley, after all) but decided not to argue it for the good of the country. I hadn’t heard that the plurality was the deciding factor, but that makes sense. This is yet another case where Nixon was better than Bush. When Nixon was asked why he lost, he said “they fixed the Chicago voting better than we did”. ---
**Author:** ![Oveja\_Slayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/47e85d/32.png) [@Oveja\_Slayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oveja_Slayer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/190 "2010-02-16T05:57:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When Nixon was asked why he lost, he said “they fixed the Chicago voting better than we did”. Hehehehe quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/191 "2010-02-16T06:11:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When Nixon was asked why he lost, he said “they fixed the Chicago voting better than we did”. When I lived in Illinois Dakin Williams, Tennessee Williams’ brother, was more or less running for governor. At one point he campaigned in the graveyards of Chicago because “that is where the votes are.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/192 "2010-02-16T06:39:00Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Think about it logically. Had a million Iraqis (primarily young males) had died than we would have seen a complete societal and economical collapse. :dubious: Post-invasion, there **was** a complete social and economic collapse in Iraq. Didn’t you notice? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/193 "2010-02-16T06:43:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > When I lived in Illinois Dakin Williams, Tennessee Williams’ brother, was more or less running for governor. At one point he campaigned in the graveyards of Chicago because “that is where the votes are.” Two Daley Machine operatives were going through the cemetery registering voters. One said, “OK, we’ve got enough, let’s go home.” The other said, “Hey, wait, what about these guys over here? They have as much right to vote as the others!” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/194 "2010-02-16T07:14:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If Illinois had gone Republican, Nixon would have won. Let’s just say that Nixon had some legitimate doubts about the fairness of vote counting in Chicago (it was Mayor Daley, after all) but decided not to argue it for the good of the country. I hadn’t heard that the plurality was the deciding factor, but that makes sense. This is yet another case where Nixon was better than Bush. Well, to be more accurate, Nixon showed in public to be magnanimous. His allies on the other hand: > **[Was Nixon Robbed?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000/10/was-nixon-robbed.html)** > > "You gotta swallow this one," says a Republican hack in Oliver Stone's Nixon, referring to the 1960 election, in which John F. Kennedy prevailed. "They... > [@](#): > > his allies did dispute the results—aggressively. The New York Herald Tribune’s Earl Mazo, a friend and biographer of Nixon’s, recounted a dozen-odd fishy incidents alleged by Republicans in Illinois and Texas. Largely due to Mazo’s reporting, the charges gained wide acceptance. > > But it wasn’t just Mazo who made a stink. The press went into a brief frenzy in the weeks after the election. Most important, the Republican Party made a veritable crusade of undoing the results. Even if they ultimately failed, party leaders figured, they could taint Kennedy’s victory, claim he had no mandate for his agenda, galvanize the rank and file, and have a winning issue for upcoming elections. > > Three days after the election, party Chairman Sen. Thruston Morton launched bids for recounts and investigations in 11 states—an action that Democratic Sen. Henry Jackson attacked as a “fishing expedition.” Eight days later, close Nixon aides, including Bob Finch and Len Hall, sent agents to conduct “field checks” in eight of those states. Peter Flanigan, another aide, encouraged the creation of a Nixon Recount Committee in Chicago. All the while, everyone claimed that Nixon knew nothing of these efforts—an implausible assertion that could only have been designed to help Nixon dodge the dreaded “sore loser” label. > > The Republicans pressed their case doggedly. They succeeded in obtaining recounts, empanelling grand juries, and involving U.S. attorneys and the FBI. Appeals were heard, claims evaluated, evidence weighed. The New York Times considered the charges in a Nov. 26 editorial. (Its bold verdict: “It is now imperative that the results in each state be definitively settled by the time the electoral college meets.”) > > The results of it all were meager. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/195 "2010-02-16T07:25:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And here you are forgetting history… **GIGObuster** – he was 3 years old in 2000. I’m pretty sure “forgetting history” doesn’t (and won’t) play into it here. I don’t think anyone’s going to convince him that Gore specifically _didn’t_ drag out the election (in actuality, he conceded gracefully and early). Even though virtually every single person here besides him has actual first-person memories of the 2000 election. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/196 "2010-02-16T07:28:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If Illinois had gone Republican, Nixon would have won. This is wrong. Kennedy won the electoral vote 303 to 219, and still would have won even if Illinois’ 27 electoral votes had gone to Nixon. If Nixon had won Illinois _and Texas_, he would have won the election. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/197 "2010-02-16T08:07:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is wrong. Kennedy won the electoral vote 303 to 219, and still would have won even if Illinois’ 27 electoral votes had gone to Nixon. If Nixon had won Illinois _and Texas_, he would have won the election. I’d just like **Curtis** to actually discuss why he thinks Kennedy stole the election. This isn’t the first time he’s brought it up without explanation or cite. And, folks, do we really need to continually bring up a poster’s age? It’s really not germane to the discussion. **Curtis** does have quite a bit of historical knowledge of events previous to, and shortly after, his birth. I was a small child in the 80’s, yet never seem to get chided for contributing my opinion on the historical facts and interpretations of that decade. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/198 "2010-02-16T08:16:56Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > And, folks, do we really need to continually bring up a poster’s age? It’s really not germane to the discussion. This might be the first thread where it actually is relevant, at least somewhat. G. W. Bush is probably the only president the OP remembers in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/199 "2010-02-16T08:17:11Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > **GIGObuster** – he was 3 years old in 2000. I’m pretty sure “forgetting history” doesn’t (and won’t) play into it here. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And if he fails twice he will be expelled.. 😃 Yes, I do know that allegedly he is in school. And he shows enough awareness that sometimes I wonder if we are doing his homework. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/200 "2010-02-16T08:17:18Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > And, folks, do we really need to continually bring up a poster’s age? It’s really not germane to the discussion. Yes, I do, when it’s pertinent. And a claim that Gore pulled some Norm Coleman-esque drawing out of the 2000 election is false on its face to anyone cognizant of national events at the time. Which he wasn’t, being all of 3 years old. Suck it up if you don’t like it. > [@](#): > > I was a small child in the 80’s, yet never seem to get chided for contributing my opinion on the historical facts and interpretations of that decade. Perhaps because they don’t border on nutter territory? Actually, I don’t know whether your 80s opinions do or not – just my best guess. Feel free to prove me wrong, if you’d like, that you actually _do_ often post absolute garbage concerning the 80s. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740.md?page=11)