# Was George W Bush That Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740 "2010-02-12T18:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/61 "2010-02-12T20:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Let me try to parse the meaning out of your rant. Ellipses are not your friend. [/QUOTE] But hyperbole is yours. > [@](#): > > If it were as clear as you think as to what in the historical record renders some other presidents as inarguably worse than Bush, there’d be no debate, would there? Hm…how to spell this out for you. Here’s the thing…I’m the one saying that it ISN’T clear. That’s why I gave a range of potential badness. While you on the other hand, sheltered in your towering conviction have said…well, nothing really. Just picked nits, as usual. What exactly IS your stance on this issue? Or is it just better to snipe from the shadows than come out and actually lay out a position? > [@](#): > > In re: Airman Doors, I’m hardly busting his chops. I’m simply pointing out that while LBJ had a war and Carter had a poor economy and Nixon had a frighteningly insular, combative and detatched White House and Reagan exploded the federal debt and so on and so forth, Bush provides all of that in one package. And you figure that Airman was giving an exhaustive list of the faults of Carter, LBJ, etc when pointing out single issue problems? MMmmm…I see… > [@](#): > > As for partisan, if you think people are being frantic and desperate here, I think you fit the bill as a reflexive partisan pretty well. Well there’s a shock. I’m stunned…STUNNED I tell you! I’ll leave it up to the readers to decide who is being partisan here and who isn’t as you really aren’t worth chatting with until you actually have a position of your own to discuss. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/62 "2010-02-12T20:38:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Huh. Interesting. I’m similarly struck by those who find it palatable to say that GW Bush was THE worst president ever, despite solid historical evidence that there have been presidents who have done far more egregious things (or nothing at all) during their presidency. The almost frantic assertions almost have an, um, partisan tinge to them…don’t you think? I mean you (as a mere example) are busting the chops of Airman here because HE ISN’T RADICAL ENOUGH FOR YOU! No…he only thinks Bush is bad…but he must have a hidden agenda, because he doesn’t think Bush was THE WORSTEST EVAH! > > Does that seem a bit, well, over the top to you? I ask purely out of curiosity… > > -XT Who is busting his chops again? I lived through the 1980 recession and this one, and through Vietnam and Iraq. And I voted for Nixon, Ford and Reagan in my first three presidential votes, so I’m not looking at the Carter presidency through rose colored glasses. He was a terrible president, but Bush was far worse, and the current recession was much worse than the 1980 one. And I’m saying that as someone who hasn’t been adversely affected by it. As for Bush being worst ever, I’ve never studied the eight years before the Civil War in depth, so I have no opinion - though I think I’m going to search for a book from the library about that period. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/63 "2010-02-12T20:41:27Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Johnson was a bad President because of Vietnam. It doesn’t matter if you are taking four easy courses and get A’s, if you get an F in the only course in your major. I’d say that Johnson’s As were hardly in easy classes. Civil rights legislation eluded JFK. However, the student with 4 As and an F is better than one with all Fs. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/64 "2010-02-12T20:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Who is busting his chops again? [/QUOTE] To me it’s as if people are going for the throat of anyone who isn’t faithful enough. Think Bush is in the bottom 1/3 of all time worst presidents? Not good enough! Bam! Think he’s in the bottom 10 of all time worst? Nope…you partisan bastards are all alike! Think he’s in the bottom 5? HA! Get your Republican ass out of here. Think he’s the worst ever? Ah…you might pass. What’s your take on his drinking to blood of Muslim children and using the poor for firewood…? The thing is, ‘worst ever’ is going to be a value judgment, and going to depend on what issues one finds important. To me, LBJ was worst because Vietnam was worse. I grew up during the war, my father fought in the war, and all the stuff that happened during LBJ’s presidency far outweighed the bad things that happened under Bush. I also feel Nixon was worse, again because I grew up under the continuation of the Vietnam war, the escalation, the revelations about Cambodia, and Watergate. I’m hardly an unbiased source on either of their presidencies (nor Carter for that matter), as they imprinted on me when I was still a kid, and that imprint continues to today. As I’ve said numerous times in these silly threads when they pop up, I think we are ALL too close to the events that have just transpired during Bush’s presidency (and Clinton’s too IMHO) to really evaluate them from a historical perspective. I think that history will judge him as being a bad president, no doubts in my mind…but I serious doubt he’ll be judged as the worst (depending on what metrics one is using to quantify what ‘worst’ even means. Worst how?). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/65 "2010-02-12T20:52:24Z")
From what I can tell, there are four reasons that anyone could even think to ask the question “Was Bush that bad?”: [ul] [li]One is so young, s/he has no comparative context, potentially not even a memory of other presidents[/li][li]One is a conservative Christian, for whom Bush being a “good, God-fearing man” excuses everything else[/li][li]One is such a Republican partisan as to be unable to acknowledge objective facts[/li][li]One is (willfully) ignorant of good governance[/li][/ul] Yes, his administration was _that_ bad. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/66 "2010-02-12T20:52:57Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Johnson was a bad President because of Vietnam. It doesn’t matter if you are taking four easy courses and get A’s, if you get an F in the only course in your major. War is always a dangerous undertaking politically, and Johnson blew it. Vietnam was a war that should not have been fought. Johnson fought it mostly because he didn’t want to be blamed for communists taking over Vietnam “on his watch”. He was worried about what the domestic US opposition would do with it. That isn’t a good enough reason to go to war. But Bush’s grabbing oil and running in 04 as a “war president” was even worse. I’d say that the Civil Rights legislation was a heck of a triumph by Johnson, with positive effects that will outlast the negative effects of the Vietnam War (maybe have _already_ outlasted). In any case, I was stipulating that maybe GWB wasn’t as bad as Johnson, Carter, etc., in their particular failed classes, but he was at least almost as bad as each of them. I think one could argue that GWB’s economic policy was much worse than Carter’s, ditto his handling of the war, etc. Anyway, it’s a failed analogy, I suppose. A bad enough failure in one field (say Obama starts WW III and destroys the world) could be worse than passing (or failing to pass, whatever you’d prefer) a heath care reform bill. So, I guess I’d agree that GWB seems to be worse than others in many ways, almost as bad as some of the bad ones in other ways, and pretty poor all around. Except for the African anti-AIDS support – Kudos there! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/67 "2010-02-12T20:54:42Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m struck by how many people find it palatable to say that GW Bush was among the five worst, but NO OF COURSE HE WASN’T THE WORST IT WOULD BE STUPID TO SAY SO. > > I really can’t figure out why this is. Do you have some credence if you place him with four other shit presidents that is lost if you happen to say that he’s the worst? Saying that someone was the absolute worst President in the Republic’s history is an extraordinary claim. In order to establish that it is true, we must: 1.) Come up with at least some criteria for poor performance that we can all more-or-less agree upon; 2.) Identify other Presidents who have performed poorly under those criteria; and 3.) Establish that these Presidents, despite their ineptitude, still performed better than W. The problem comes up at step 1 of the process. Pretty much the only thing that I think we could _all_ agree on is that the foremost duty of our government is the preservation of the Union as a liberal democracy. The protection of our country is the paramount duty of Presidents. Buchanan, and to a lesser degree, Pierce, failed in that duty. They failed to stop Succession, which posed an existential threat to the Union itself. (Whether or not they _could_ have stopped it is fodder for another thread - suffice to say, they didn’t even try.) For us to say that President Bush performed _worse_ than these men thus seems implausible - even at his worst, there was no danger that the Union under Bush’s watch would be destroyed. When we make that implausible claim, and expect to be taken seriously - yes, that costs us credibility. Which is why even people like myself, like **Airman Doors** , and so on (none of us fans of W) take pains to point out that we are _not_ making, or endorsing, that implausible claim. In short: We take pains to admit that Bush is _not_ the very worst President that the Union has ever had because saying otherwise would make us look like liars or fools. However, we can still say - and do! - that Bush was a very, very bad President. And that statement has greater credibility, because we haven’t first tried to convince our listeners of absurdities. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/68 "2010-02-12T20:56:46Z")
Here is GWB’s great legacy: He screwed up so badly that the majority of Americans voted in a BLACK MAN to succeed him, rather than have another Republican. So, for that, he should be remembered. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/69 "2010-02-12T20:58:51Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Abu Ghraib and the sanctioning of torture as policy Including the torture of citizens of allied countries. Was Bush that bad? No, he was worse. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/70 "2010-02-12T21:03:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The only thing comparable to the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses, torture is Andrew Jackson’s treatment of native Americans. Polk’s invasion of Mexico? That was an invasion under false pretenses. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/71 "2010-02-12T21:05:31Z")
In hindsight, so was the Spanish/American war, since we pretty much know today that it had little to do with the Maine, and that the Maine was pretty much not sunk by the Spanish in any event. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/72 "2010-02-12T21:06:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Polk’s invasion of Mexico? That was an invasion under false pretenses. Yah - I think Polk gets a pass, historically, because that invasion was so amazingly successful that there wasn’t a whole lot of fallout from it for the US. Also, to his credit, Polk himself seemed to view the Presidency as a stint of public service, not a lifestyle - he said he’d only serve on term, and he did it. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/73 "2010-02-12T21:15:24Z")
GWB was easily the worst president since Nixon. IMO he’s worse than Nixon because at least Nixon had some notable successes. You might be able to argue the GWB is comparable to LBJ. After that you have to go back to Hoover to find anyone as close to as incompetent as GWB. OTOH, if Iraq turns out to be a success (and I’m not expecting it) then GWB’s legacy goes up a few notches. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/74 "2010-02-12T21:17:53Z")
Even if it’s completely successful (which I can’t see), I doubt it will raise his ratings much with serious historians. They will focus on the justifications and the cost, not the end result, and I think that on those he’ll be judged rather harshly. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/75 "2010-02-12T21:22:57Z")
The war with Mexico clearly had elements of opportunism and military adventurism, but there was provocation, it cannot fairly be described as naked aggression. The Spanish-American War was sold as a noble effort to free the oppressed colonies of Spain, and did not become a thoroughly shameful episode until we betrayed the Filipino freedom fighters. Meet the new boss… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/76 "2010-02-12T21:25:48Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Note the repetitive theme there. Great stock is placed on that phrase around here. 9/11 happened on Bush’s watch, so it’s his fault. Fine. So, to be fair, stop trying to exonerate others for things that happened on their watch. What are you talking about? It’s pretty well established even among us liberals that Bush handled the immediate aftermath of 9/11 very well, _The Pet Goat_ aside. The only time I can recall anyone mentioning that it “happened on his watch” is when former Administration officials crow about how we didn’t have any terrorist attacks during his Presidency, which is retarded. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/77 "2010-02-12T21:38:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Polk’s invasion of Mexico? That was an invasion under false pretenses. Yup, and it was a bad thing. But it turned out good for the USA. Outcomes for the US is what we are discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/78 "2010-02-12T21:39:44Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > GWB was easily the worst president since Nixon. IMO he’s worse than Nixon because at least Nixon had some notable successes. You might be able to argue the GWB is comparable to LBJ. After that you have to go back to Hoover to find anyone as close to as incompetent as GWB. > > OTOH, if Iraq turns out to be a success (and I’m not expecting it) then GWB’s legacy goes up a few notches. Not only did Nixon have “some noteable successes” - in many ways, he was the anti-Bush. Yes, he was an evil bastard - but he was an evil bastard who _built_ many of the institutions that Bush spent his administration tearing down. The EPA was Nixon’s baby, as was much of the modern administrative state. Moreover, Nixon’s policy of detente with the Soviet Union probably made us genuinely, legitimately _more safe_ - he reduced the risk of nuclear war. Bush has no such achievements to his credit. Nixon left an indelible stain upon the Presidency, and I don’t know that he can ever be forgiven for it. But he also left the country safer than he found it, and with new and useful institutions. There is an argument to be made that we are genuinely better off for having had Nixon as our President - I don’t believe anyone could persuasively make that case for W. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/79 "2010-02-12T22:15:00Z")
Amazingly, I actually find myself largely in agreement with **xtisme**. However, I’d make one further distinction: Not only is it difficult to fit such a recent president in the historical context, but I would say that even within a historical context, it’s not possible to compare presidents precisely enough across a span of centuries to definitively say which one was worst. A hundred years from now, it still won’t be resolvable whether Bush or Buchanan, say, was worse, because the circumstances under which they held office were so different. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740/80 "2010-02-12T22:26:52Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > His deficiencies stand out because they are fresh in our memory. I won’t suggest he’ll ever be considered a top-tier president (because he wasn’t), but I think with historical perspective he won’t be disdained quite as much as his is today. He will, because of recording devices. > [@](#): > > Historians can be more dispassionate. You don’t see many people getting worked up by the Spanish-American War anymore. No, you don’t. But show them the history and ask them “right or wrong?” and you’ll get the same answer 1 year or 20 afterwards. You don’t see anyone getting worked up by the Trail of Tears or the Holocaust or the Bataan Death March any more either, but pretty much everyone would agree they’re as awful today as when they occured. > [@](#): > > So I’d say that in 30 years, he’ll be regarded as below average, even poor, president, most likely in the bottom 10. Probably not the worst. People won’t be as angry over his being a scumbag, sure. But I don’t think they’ll see him as less than a scumbag. Not as long as there are video archives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-that-bad/528740.md?page=5)