# Was George W Bush Worse than Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126 "2021-09-22T16:53:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/41 "2021-09-23T15:43:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The USA has for much longer than you or I have been alive been an aggressive, scheming military power. Its performance in the Philippines during and after the Spanish American War was absolutely criminal and disgusting by any measure and that was over a century ago. Bush was nothing new at all. But it’s not SUPPOSED to be that way. Presidents like Bush and Trump and McKinley and Johnson happen because we either (a) don’t give a shit about political misconduct or (b) believe that political misconduct is inevitable because it’s always been there, so why fight it. Nixon was ousted only because people actually GAVE A CRAP back then. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/42 "2021-09-23T15:51:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is ridiculous to suggest Bush trashed the economy _on purpose_ . It borders on ridiculous to suggest he trashed the economy at all. > **[How Republicans Sabotaged the Recovery](https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/07/23/how-republicans-sabotaged-the-recovery/)** > > The economy didn't jump. It was pushed. > Back in 2000, the United States had expected to rack up more than $4 trillion in budgetary surpluses over the coming eight years, but the Bush administration enacted tax cuts that brought the tax burden for upper-income Americans down to the lowest levels since the 1940s. These cuts, combined with two expensive wars and a short recession, sent the nation into deep deficits. That certainly was not an accident and prompted me to vote for the very first time. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/43 "2021-09-23T15:57:16Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > That certainly was not an accident and prompted me to vote for the very first time. Whatever the stupidity of that policy, the 2008 fiscal crisis had different causes. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/44 "2021-09-23T16:42:44Z")
You nailed it. I especially liked the “post turtle” since it appears to describe Bush so precisely. Stupid v. evil describes it well. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/45 "2021-09-23T17:08:40Z")
I think the Iraq invasion stands alone and still makes Bush the worst post civil war (or at least post reconstruction) president. None of his other actions come remotely close to putting him on a Trump level, but that alone eclipses everything else that he did. What makes Iraq stand out from the say LBJ’s Vietnam escalation mentioned above, was it was completely and utter his “baby”. It wasn’t an intervention left from a previous president, the Bush administration unilaterally decided to use the foreign policy carte blanch that 9/11 gave them to invade Iraq, a country that did not pose a threat and had nothing to do with 9/11. That killed 100s of thousands of people and caused repercussions we are still dealing with (ISIS is completely a product of the Iraq war)… Trump absolutely was a terrible president who blatantly tried to subvert the entire democratic process in innumerable ways, permanently weakening US democracy it in the process, but nothing he did compares to that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/46 "2021-09-23T17:26:49Z")
Remember that George H.W. Bush intentionally did not invade Iraq. He knew it was a useful buffer state. So yeah, you can validly say that his son created Daesh. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/47 "2021-09-23T17:42:33Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > That certainly was not an accident and prompted me to vote for the very first time. What @RickJay said, and also this has nothing to do with your original claim: > [@Skywatcher](#): > > Well, except for trashing the economy on his way out so Obama would have to deal with that mess. Those policies weren’t “on the way out,” and no one knew who Obama was then. So even if you could draw a line from that particular fiscal blunder to the '08 meltdown, it still wouldn’t back up your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/48 "2021-09-23T19:04:42Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > We also started seeing the authoritarian creep during the Bush admin. The post 9/11 statement “You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists” became a harbinger of this tendency. While it made sense at the time in the context of responding to 9/11 – with “us” meaning Americans, not specifically Republicans – within a few months anyone who disagreed publicly with GWB had his or her patriotism called into question. That said, I still consider Trump far worse a president. Worse than the next three combined. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/49 "2021-09-23T19:35:28Z")
Maybe I have limited imagination, but I am having a hard time conceiving of a successor that would make me say, “Well, at least Trump meant well”. The best I can imagine would be, “Well at least Trumps incompetence kept his maliciousness in check”, or “Well, at least Trump wasn’t actively genocidal” ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/50 "2021-09-23T19:44:28Z")
I have a limited imagination too, but I fear future events will teach me. It would be great if tanTrump was the worst President ever, that would mean it only gets better from here on. But that is not what me feelings tell me. I’d love to be wrong, but it is not in my hands. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/51 "2021-09-23T20:01:26Z")
# [Was George W Bush Worse than Trump?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126) No. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2021, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/52 "2021-09-24T02:55:55Z")
Reminds me of _Fahrenheit 11/9_. I can’t remember all of the details, but I think some of tidbits included the ff. - The Clintons are (or were) good friends of the Trumps, and Trump supported the Democrats for years. Actually, he’s been switching routinely from party to party to claiming that he’s independent, and so forth. In previous interviews, Trump even stated that Hillary would be a fine candidate for the Presidency. - Almost everyone thought that Clinton would win. I think Moore argued that only he and Coulter (I think) argued otherwise, and they were criticized. It appears that even Trump didn’t know that he would win as he did not even prepare for a victory celebration. - The decision to run for President itself was likely considered by accident. It appears that Trump wanted to convince network heads that he had a lot of pull and came up with a documented mock rally to show them that he did. To his surprise, many showed up because they thought that he was really planning to run for office. - Trump gained for provisions favoring the rich made possible by both the Bush and Obama administrations. Later, his own administration promoted the same. - See also (I think) the Carlyle Group, etc. Some more tidbits I found out outside the documentary: - The Trumps also supported Kamala Harris’ earlier campaigns. - Some argue that Trump’s candidacy was meant to ensure a victory for Clinton. - A few months ago, videos were shown with Harris and Graham doing fist bumps. No one knows what that means, but it’s just as mysterious as Michelle Obama having Dubya as her BFF. As for Dubya and the Iraqi invasion, there might also be connections between that the the Iraqis using the euro for oil trade in 2000: [https://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/30/iraq.un.euro.reut/](https://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/30/iraq.un.euro.reut/) as well as subsequent destabilization of countries like Libya, but that took place under the Obama admin: > **[Why Qaddafi had to go: African gold, oil and the challenge to monetary...](https://theecologist.org/2016/mar/14/why-qaddafi-had-go-african-gold-oil-and-challenge-monetary-imperialism)** > > What was NATO's violent intervention in Libya really all about? Now we know, writes Ellen Brown, thanks to Hillary Clinton's recently published emails. It was to prevent the creation of an independent hard currency in Africa that would free the... How does that The Who song go again? “Meet the new boss/ Same as the old boss”? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/53 "2021-09-24T13:25:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Then I think you haven’t hung around with some Trump folks long enough. Some of them go far beyond what Trump could or would. In all honesty, I do not for even a single second believe that assertion. Donald Trump wants absolute power over this nation for the rest of his entire life. I can’t see anything that goes far beyond that. How that isn’t plain to see is mind boggling to me. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/54 "2021-09-24T18:37:57Z")
To me it is fairly simple–Bush’s mistakes cost us more money and lives. That’s bad. Trump’s deliberate action for a good chunk of his Presidency and certainly the last months of it were aimed at ending democratic government in the United States. While not easily measured in dollars or lives, that is a far worse thing than Bush’s mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/55 "2021-09-26T13:51:53Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Iraq … killed 100s of thousands of people and caused repercussions we are still dealing with … > > Trump absolutely was a terrible president … , but nothing he did compares to that. I beg to differ. Trump’s mishandling of Covid killed hundreds of thousands of people. That would put him on about an equal footing with Bush. Maybe not quite as bad but a close thing. Add the attempted coup, and Trump comes out way ahead. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/56 "2021-09-26T14:16:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Bush at least had good intentions, and a somewhat-decent understanding of how things worked. Trump had neither. > > As for deaths - Bush got 700,000 Iraqis killed. Trump got 600,000 Americans killed. Take your pick as to which lives are worth more. > > Bush cost the U.S. several trillion dollars in foreign wars, Trump cost the U.S. several trillion dollars in Covid-related economic damage. > > I’d still say Bush was better. Bush left office quietly when he was voted out. That ought to tip the scales by any measure. Apart from that, I think Trump and Bush the Lesser are the same. People understandably get caught up in Trump’s gross and stupid aesthetics, and the yawning toddler-like gulf of narcissism at the core of his being. But I still get triggered at a Yale-educated guy from Connecticut affecting a cowboy drawl, buying a ranch in Texas, and playing up the whole “well gawrsh, my oilman advisors say we gonna have to kill some Eye-Rackeys to fix all the terr’ism.” Bush was every bit the bloodthirsty, performative, fake douchebag just like Trump, he just chose different aesthetics. Had 9/11 not given him a focal point for his grift, I have every confidence he would have been happy to build a border wall and pull every other stupid gimmick in Trump’s playbook. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/57 "2021-09-26T17:23:18Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Bush left office quietly when he was voted out. George W. Bush left office quietly when he was term-limited out. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/58 "2021-09-26T17:24:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > George W. Bush left office quietly when he was term-limited out. Indeed; @HMS_Irruncible may be thinking of GHW Bush, who lost in his re-election bid to Bill Clinton, and did, also, leave office quietly. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/59 "2021-09-26T17:44:21Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Body count means nothing, Honest Abe got a lot more people killed too. Easy to say when you’re not one of the bodies. Or closely attached to one of the bodies. And the “Honest Abe” remark is only apt if you erroneously attribute moral blameworthiness for the Civil War (I presume that’s what you’re referring to) to Lincoln himself. I personally do not. I do, however, attribute blame for the Iraq War and ensuing civilian deaths (which, honestly, depending on the figures you use, direct violence versus excess/indirect deaths attributable to associated humanitarian disasters, could easily trump losses on both sides of the Civil War). Moral culpability for the War in Afghanistan is a little murkier. But only just a little. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126/60 "2021-09-26T18:09:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > George W. Bush left office quietly when he was term-limited out. Don’t forget, Trump thought he was entitled to re-election [beyond the term limit](https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/18/politics/donald-trump-third-term-2024/index.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-george-w-bush-worse-than-trump/951126.md?page=4)