# Was Goliath the underdog? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319 "2007-01-09T18:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/1 "2007-01-09T18:17:36Z")
I read this laughable quote on [CNNSI.com](http://CNNSI.com) “They said it couldn’t be done, that David couldn’t beat Goliath,” shouted [Florida’s] Joiner. “The score has been settled. Forty-one to 14, University of Florida. Who didn’t deserve to be here?” (As an aside, since when is “David” the #2-ranked SEC champ? A little school from Florida that’s never been on the national stage? Please! Save the hyperbole for Boise State, buddy.) Anyway, I thought back to the original story from the Bible. Did David, with his sling and stone “outgun” Goliath with his sword? David had a definite range advantage, but how fast can a sling throw the rock? With more force than Goliath could render with his sword? Was it the equivalent of me with a .22 handgun going against The Rock wielding a sword? “Ha ha! bringing a knife to a gunfight!” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/2 "2007-01-10T06:50:28Z")
I see David and Goliath sort of like the _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ scene with swordsman and gun- it was a bit underhanded. But, brilliant, and a fight between a heavily armed giant and an unarmored adolescent shepherd boy is hardly fair, so not much sympathy. Anyway, the way I read it the stone didn’t kill Goliath, it just stunned and disoriented him and caused him to fall faceforward. It was David’s decapitation of him with the giant’s own sword that ended him. To answer the question though, David was the underdog in terms of brute force and Goliath was the underdog in terms of cunning. I think the whole moral of this story is the value of brains over brawn. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/3 "2007-01-10T07:09:26Z")
The King James version is ambiguous: 1 Samuel 17:49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. 50:So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and **slew** him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. 51:Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and **slew** him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled. Goliath got slewed twice, it seems. Breakin’ 2: Electric Slew-galoo. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/4 "2007-01-10T13:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Goliath got slewed twice, it seems. [/QUOTE] Talk about\* overkill.\* It always struck me that David cheated a bit in this contest. Goliath challeneged him to with contemporary military weapons and didn’t expect the kid to whip out a hunting weapon. Essentially, David brought a gun to a sword fight. ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/5 "2007-01-10T14:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Talk about\* overkill.\* It always struck me that David cheated a bit in this contest. Goliath challeneged him to with contemporary military weapons and didn’t expect the kid to whip out a hunting weapon. Essentially, David brought a gun to a sword fight. [/QUOTE] How tall was Goliath? Did the Bible mention it? When I was in Sunday School, learning the story, I assumed that Goliath was as big as a skyscraper. So I might have misheard the story. ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/6 "2007-01-10T14:11:48Z")
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David\_and\_goliath#Medical\_speculation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_goliath#Medical_speculation) Well I guess I was wrong about him being as tall as a skyscraper ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/7 "2007-01-10T14:52:34Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] > **[Goliath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_goliath#Medical_speculation)** > > Goliath\[A\] (/ɡə.ˈlaɪ.əθ/ gə-LY-əth) was a Philistine warrior of giant stature who plays a pivotal role within the Biblical story's legendary account of King David in the Book of Samuel. According to 1 Samuel, Goliath challenges the Israelites to beat him in single combat. David, then a young shepherd, takes up the challenge. He fells Goliath with a stone slung from a sling and beheads the fallen giant with his own sword. The narrative signifies King Saul's unfitness to rule for not taking The ... Well I guess I was wrong about him being as tall as a skyscraper [/QUOTE] Yeah but 9’ 6". Fuck, that’s BIG! ---
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/8 "2007-01-10T16:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] It always struck me that David cheated a bit in this contest. Goliath challeneged him to with contemporary military weapons and didn’t expect the kid to whip out a hunting weapon. Essentially, David brought a gun to a sword fight. [/QUOTE] I suspect that “cheating” (or, according to Clint Eastwood in _Heartbreak Ridge_, “adapting and overcoming”) has been a singularly effective military weapon since the dawn of time. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/9 "2007-01-10T16:48:49Z")
Goliath didn’t have a chance. David had God on his side. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/10 "2007-01-10T17:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] It always struck me that David cheated a bit in this contest. Goliath challeneged him to with contemporary military weapons and didn’t expect the kid to whip out a hunting weapon. Essentially, David brought a gun to a sword fight. [/QUOTE] The sling was a military weapon as well as a hunting one. [Wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_(weapon)) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/11 "2007-01-10T18:17:30Z")
There is no such thing as cheating in a fight to the death (IMHO, there is no such thing as cheating in ANY fight for that matter)…there is only winning or having your head chopped off by some snot nosed little shepard boy with your own sword. Certainly David was the underdog…had he missed, or had Goliath managed to deflect the shot he would have been mincemeat. It was a one shot deal…win all or become dog chow. -XT ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/12 "2007-01-10T18:26:32Z")
Now if Goliath had been a Kodiak bear and David had had a Samurai sword… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/13 "2007-01-10T18:27:47Z")
…David would most likely have been lunch. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/14 "2007-01-10T18:57:13Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Certainly David was the underdog…had he missed, or had Goliath managed to deflect the shot he would have been mincemeat. It was a one shot deal…win all or become dog chow.-XT [/QUOTE] Wrong. An agile teenage boy would have been able to evade the armored giant’s attacks almost indefinately. He also would have been able to dodge Goliath’s javelins and even throw them back. Goliath would have become exhausted long before David. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/15 "2007-01-10T19:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] There is no such thing as cheating in a fight to the death (IMHO, there is no such thing as cheating in ANY fight for that matter)…there is only winning or having your head chopped off by some snot nosed little shepard boy with your own sword. Certainly David was the underdog…had he missed, or had Goliath managed to deflect the shot he would have been mincemeat. It was a one shot deal…win all or become dog chow. -XT [/QUOTE] But rules, you gotta have rules. Like in Butch Cassidy and…Oh right, bugger the rules ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/16 "2007-01-10T19:51:33Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Certainly David was the underdog…had he missed, or had Goliath managed to deflect the shot he would have been mincemeat. It was a one shot deal…win all or become dog chow. [/QUOTE] Stones are cheap, though. Even if Dave didn’t have a whole satchel full hanging from his belt, he can just pick them up off the ground. All he has to do is keep forty feet or so between him and the Big G and keep plinking him. As biblical allegories go, this one’s message isn’t “put your faith in God”, but “play to your strengths and don’t be an idiot”, which in my opinion is far more useful. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/17 "2007-01-10T19:54:01Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Now if Goliath had been a Kodiak bear and David had had a Samurai sword… [/QUOTE] … on a treadmill … ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/18 "2007-01-10T21:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Certainly David was the underdog…had he missed, or had Goliath managed to deflect the shot he would have been mincemeat. It was a one shot deal…win all or become dog chow. -XT [/QUOTE] Oh ye of little faith. He couldn’t miss. It was preordained. Besides, in addition to God, David had the story’s teller on his side. Don’t you remember how John Wayne was invincible? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/19 "2007-01-10T21:06:50Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Oh ye of little faith. He couldn’t miss. It was preordained. [/QUOTE] 😛 In point of fact, I have no faith at all. But thats another story. [QUOTE=David Simmons] Besides, in addition to God, David had the story’s teller on his side. Don’t you remember how John Wayne was invincible? [/QUOTE] Sure, but John Wayne had 30 shots in each 6 shooter, and could reload so fast that the human eye could not follow his actions! What did god have again? 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319/20 "2007-01-10T21:22:05Z")
[QUOTE=Can Handle the Truth] Wrong. An agile teenage boy would have been able to evade the armored giant’s attacks almost indefinately. He also would have been able to dodge Goliath’s javelins and even throw them back. Goliath would have become exhausted long before David. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-goliath-the-underdog/387319.md?page=2)