# Was He really a Master Teacher? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207 "2007-02-22T11:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/1 "2007-02-22T11:05:02Z")
I’ve heard it all my life and today I read it in a newspaper. Jesus (the famous one in the New Testament) has been described as _the Master Teacher_. Well, would you really describe him as that just from the evidence of his teaching in the NT? What, exactly, is it that makes him that, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/2 "2007-02-22T11:11:42Z")
For those who consider his message the most important ever for mankind, he would automatically become the ‘Master Teacher’. Even if in his delivery he was prone to mumbling. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/3 "2007-02-22T11:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=Staggerlee] For those who consider his message the most important ever for mankind, he would automatically become the ‘Master Teacher’. Even if in his delivery he was prone to mumbling. [/QUOTE] Well, they are wrong. The worth or lack thereof of the message doesn’t make you a great teacher; it’s how good you are at teaching that does so. As for how good he actually was as a teacher, there’s no real way to tell at this late date, but I expect he was middle of the road. If he’d been terrible no one would know a thing about him; if he’d been great his movement would have been more than one among many. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/4 "2007-02-22T11:28:11Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] As for how good he actually was as a teacher, there’s no real way to tell at this late date, but I expect he was middle of the road. If he’d been terrible no one would know a thing about him; if he’d been great his movement would have been more than one among many. [/QUOTE] How could it possibly have been more than one among many? Are you seriously saying that any teacher that’s better than average automatically causes all other movements to disintegrate? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/5 "2007-02-22T11:31:53Z")
I feel bad, but i’m with **Der Trihs**. It’s not the message that makes you great, it’s how you present it, how convincing you are, and how much you actually get the message across to your students. On the other hand, I don’t really think there’s any way to assess Jesus’ teaching skill. Logically if he did exist then his message is the most important and truthful message ever; that such a fantastic lesson has spread as much as it has could be put down to its own qualities rather than the help of Jesus. Even if Christianity isn’t correct, the attractiveness of the message could still effective enough that anyone could have taught it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/6 "2007-02-22T11:32:58Z")
I think he’s saying that the movement is no better than the other major contenders. In other words: one of many. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/7 "2007-02-22T11:37:49Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I feel bad, but i’m with **Der Trihs**. It’s not the message that makes you great, it’s how you present it, how convincing you are, and how much you actually get the message across to your students. [/QUOTE] I disagree. The bottom line is not how good your message is, nor is it your teaching skills - it’s how much your students end up learning. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/8 "2007-02-22T11:46:48Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I’ve heard it all my life and today I read it in a newspaper. Jesus (the famous one in the New Testament) has been described as _the Master Teacher_. Well, would you really describe him as that just from the evidence of his teaching in the NT? What, exactly, is it that makes him that, in your view? [/QUOTE] All devoted followers of any belief system are likely to describe their lead guy in fairly generous terms. Since the words of Jesus are represented by people only quoting him, and not any original writings of his, it’s not possible to settly the question of how charismatic he himself was, or how good his presentation skills were. Certainly the message, as typically presented, was a tough sell: there is a New Covenant that supercedes Jewish tradition. One might infer from the success he had in gaining at least some followers that Jesus was an effective teacher in the opinions of his disciples. At a broader level, the penetration of Christianity into the rest of the world is more attributable to people like Paul and Constantine…here again one might reasonably infer that the success of message confers status on the person the messengers credit with sourcing it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/9 "2007-02-22T11:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] I disagree. The bottom line is not how good your message is, nor is it your teaching skills - it’s how much your students end up learning. [/QUOTE] I see what you mean, but that seems like an unfair measure. After all, your students could all be idiots, or uninterested in learning, and that would then reflect badly on you. Teaching skill is a measure solely of the teacher, so in that way it’s more an accurate measure, to my mind. I would suggest that teaching skill makes one a better teacher, but how much your students end up learning makes you an _effective_ teacher. The two don’t necessarily coincide. Of course, you can’t really measure teaching skills all that well with people now, let alone a guy 2000 years ago with one reference text. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/10 "2007-02-22T12:05:23Z")
Huh, I’d never heard that title… funny. His followers tried to call him Rabbi (Teacher) a couple times and he shushed them up. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/11 "2007-02-22T12:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Well, they are wrong. The worth or lack thereof of the message doesn’t make you a great teacher; it’s how good you are at teaching that does so. [/QUOTE] Depends on your criteria. Isn’t part of good teaching the ability to condense new information into a manageable comprehensible form? All I was suggesting was that even if the pupil has to lean a little closer to catch a wise man’s words, if the lesson is great enough, it makes the teacher masterful for that. Though I am not a Christian nor a teacher. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/12 "2007-02-22T12:35:10Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Well, they are wrong. The worth or lack thereof of the message doesn’t make you a great teacher; it’s how good you are at teaching that does so. As for how good he actually was as a teacher, there’s no real way to tell at this late date, but I expect he was middle of the road. If he’d been terrible no one would know a thing about him; if he’d been great his movement would have been more than one among many. [/QUOTE] Does it make him less of a master teacher because others might deserve the title as well? It is hard to tell since we don’t know how accurate the NT is but putting aside any question of divinity lets consider a few things. 1. He got 12 men of various backgrounds to abandon their livelihood and be his primary disciples so they could carry on his teachings. 2. He drew large crowds to listen to his message. Enough that the other teachers of his day were threatened and tried to discredit him. 3.He has become the icon of the largest religion in the world and more than 2000 years later more people study his teachings than anyone elses. 3. He lived his teachings to the degree that he would not deny them even in the face of his torture and death. I’d say he deserves the title even if he shares it with a few others. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/13 "2007-02-22T12:46:19Z")
May we put aside the issue of the accuracy or lack thereof of the NT? As I mentioned in the OP, _as Jesus was described in the NT_, does he actually merit the title of _Master Teacher_? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/14 "2007-02-22T13:30:45Z")
Gotta do it . . . Gotta do it . . . 1st Roman Soldier: I’m worried. This Jesus–I can’t help but thing we shouldn’t crucify him. 2nd Soldier: Why is that? 1st Soldier: Well, some say he is a great teacher. 2nd Soldier (laughing): He’s not a great teacher! After all, how much has he published? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/15 "2007-02-22T15:00:34Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] 1. He got 12 men of various backgrounds to abandon their livelihood and be his primary disciples so they could carry on his teachings. 2. He drew large crowds to listen to his message. Enough that the other teachers of his day were threatened and tried to discredit him. 3.He has become the icon of the largest religion in the world and more than 2000 years later more people study his teachings than anyone elses. 3. He lived his teachings to the degree that he would not deny them even in the face of his torture and death. [/QUOTE] But which of these are due to the teacher, and which to the message? I could just as easily say that those 12 men, large crowds, and people from then to today were affected by the message and not through his teaching. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/16 "2007-02-22T15:22:32Z")
I personally don’t see it - his parable methodology seems kind of open-ended to me, too interpretable. The Sermon on the Mount is a little clearer, but mostly empty platitudes. Sure, you could say that Christianity flourishes today, but I’d point to the vast variety of sects and the disparities between them, from hateful fundies to gentle Quakers, from Catholics to Orthodox to Anglican to Amish, as evidence to the lack of a clear Lesson from the “Master Teacher”. FYI - This is from someone who really rates Buddha as a teacher (even though similar arguments could be made) - I think his central message comes across a bit better. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/17 "2007-02-22T16:08:35Z")
How are you interpreting the phrase “Master Teacher”? One interpretation: If you are a follower of some person and are guided by their teachings, that person is your “Master Teacher.” So, for example, a Freudian psychologist might consider Sigmund Freud their Master Teacher. From that standpoint, Jesus certainly was and is Master Teacher to a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/18 "2007-02-22T16:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] But which of these are due to the teacher, and which to the message? I could just as easily say that those 12 men, large crowds, and people from then to today were affected by the message and not through his teaching. [/QUOTE] But that was my point. I think that to be a “great teacher” you have to both know how to teach \*and/i] have something new to say. If you can’t teach, then you won’t get your message across no matter how good it is; if you’re a great educator, but all you’re passing down is platitudes and bad advice, then you’re message won’t stick. Here’s a good way to know a master teacher - by how many of his students become master teachers themselves. If your students are passing your message on, that means both that you served as thei example, and that your teachings are worth passing on. By that logic, Peter, Paul et. al. are the evidence of Jesus’s greatness. ---
**Author:** ![leo\_rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@leo\_rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leo_rider)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/19 "2007-02-22T18:35:39Z")
Jesus was a scam artist. All prophets and seers are false prophets. They get people to follow them with tricks. The Jews are just lucky they hadn’t invented Kool-aid or gasoline in those days or he might have been the first John Jones or David Koresh. Teacher? Not worthy of the name. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207/20 "2007-02-22T19:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] But that was my point. I think that to be a “great teacher” you have to both know how to teach \*and/i] have something new to say. [/QUOTE] But having something new to say says nothing about one’s teaching ability. In Jesus’s case, depending on your view of the trinity, the message was either invented by himself as a philosophical being, or told to him by another. Either way, I don’t see how that message should be counted as part of his excellence in teaching; if we assume that the message is so great and fantastic (as indeed it is claimed) how do we know that any old person couldn’t have passed it on to others if given it? And if any person could have taught it, how is Jesus a better teacher than anyone else? I’m not saying that’s how it happened - after all, I don’t believe the guy existed. I just don’t think you can use the message itself as proof of his own excellence, and if you can’t seperate the two, we can’t say how great a teacher he was. We may have to agree to disagree on this. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-he-really-a-master-teacher/393207.md?page=2)