# Was Hiroshima necessary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2026, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923 "2026-07-26T00:47:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/1 "2026-07-26T00:47:08Z")
The options were to the USA (and the Allied powers- which didnt know about the Bomb of course)- **Invasion** - lots of casualties- > **[Operation Downfall | Estimated casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties)** > > Due to the nature of combat in the Pacific Theater and the characteristics of the Japanese Armed Forces, it was accepted that a direct invasion of mainland Japan would be very difficult and costly. The Allies would not only have to contend with all available Japanese military forces that could be brought to bear, but also the resistance of a "fanatically hostile population." Depending on the scope and context, casualty estimates for American forces ranged from 220,000 to several million, and In ... > Depending on the scope and context, casualty estimates for American forces ranged from 220,000 to several million, and estimates of Japanese military and civilian casualties ran from the millions to the tens of millions… Operations against Japan subsequent to Formosa" (JCS 924), to reflect the experience gained. Taking into account the stiff resistance of the Japanese 31st Army at [Saipan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saipan "Battle of Saipan"), they concluded that if U.S. forces had to defeat all 3.5 million Japanese soldiers who could be made available, “it might cost us half a million American lives and many times that number wounded.”[[94]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGiangreco200950-94) Despite the high numbers, by the spring of 1945 a figure of 500,000 battle casualties for the projected invasion was widely used in briefings, while totals of closer to a million were used for actual planning purpose. **Naval Blockade** - many Japanese casualties- tens of millions, plus most if not all Allied POWs. **Continued Strategic Bombing** - Most or less the same as Blockade- plus it wouldnt work. Every option considered by the Allies would cause ten times or more Japanese civilian casualties, compared to the two Atomic bombs. Taking that into consideration the Atom Bomb seem to be the best (but very bad) choice to save lives. Now of course some thought of other options, waiting for the Soviets (still more casualties), Some sort of peace short of Unconditional surrender, and more. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/2 "2026-07-26T00:54:56Z")
I’ll just quote myself: > [@The use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was it justified?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/90): > > Hell, think of [Saipan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saipan) and [Okinawa,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa) where a total of somewhere between 48,000 and 160,000 civilians died. Either at their own hands, by being drafted to take up arms, as a consequence of being forced to gather supplies for their military, or by Allied artillery. > > > [@Seventy Years Ago Today....](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-years-ago-today/727154/17): > > > > Extrapolating from the percentage of the total population which died during the invasions of Saipan and Okinawa, something like six million Japanese would have died if the Allies invaded their homeland. Many of them at their own hands. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan\_myers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@aruvqan\_myers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan_myers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/3 "2026-07-26T01:05:41Z")
My dad was professionally thrilled for the bomb, and personally horrified by the destruction. His armored unit was shipped back from Europe to California and was within weeks of getting on a ship to Japan. Bomb = no odds of dying to a Japanese insurgent. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/4 "2026-07-26T01:07:49Z")
My history teacher was part of the planning. He said it saved at least half a million American lives. It certainly saved many more Japanese lives. The answer to the question is yes, and will always be. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/5 "2026-07-26T01:25:00Z")
In the bigger picture, the atomic bombings of Japan served as a “vaccination” to prevent the rest of the world from using nukes in warfare ever since. If the A-bombs hadn’t been dropped on Japan, then we’d just see A-bombs getting used in the Korean War, Vietnam, maybe Europe, somewhere else. One way or another, humans weren’t going to be dissuaded from nuclear use without a real-life usage of the thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/6 "2026-07-26T01:40:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In the bigger picture, the atomic bombings of Japan served as a “vaccination” to prevent the rest of the world from using nukes in warfare ever since. Excellent point. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The answer to the question is yes, and will always be. Might have saved my Dads life even. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/7 "2026-07-26T02:37:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In the bigger picture, the atomic bombings of Japan served as a “vaccination” to prevent the rest of the world from using nukes in warfare ever since. [Until you have a national leader who doesn’t understand why they shouldn’t use them](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/03/trump-asks-why-us-cant-use-nukes-msnbcs-joe-scarborough-reports.html). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/8 "2026-07-26T10:40:48Z")
Was this thread necessary? We, and including you the OP, did the same topic 11 months ago to the tune of ~200 posts. As cited in post #2 of this thread. There is no significant new scholarship since then. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/9 "2026-07-26T11:05:54Z")
Late add: To inject some substance into my post just above, I’ll quote my first post of several from that thread. > [@The use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was it justified?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/2): > > It was obviously justified tactically, strategically, and morally. This was total war and the enemy leadership was utterly unwilling to think of surrender before they received a game-changing wake-up call. Which was delivered at the coast of a mere ~250K enemy killed. Vastly fewer than would have died in the follow-on invasion of the Japanese home islands. And with zero, repeat zero, American casualties. Versus the over 1M estimated for the planned invasion. This is probably the cleanest exam… ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/10 "2026-07-26T14:03:50Z")
Which will be never bc the people who get to make these decisions love their position in power and they know that all goes away if they use one. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/11 "2026-07-26T21:57:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **Naval Blockade** - many Japanese casualties- tens of millions, plus most if not all Allied POWs. The combined coastlines of the four main islands of Japan is more than 18,000 miles. The idea that the U.S., even with the aid of Britain and the Soviet Union, could effectively blockade that entire area, was wishful thinking. > [@DrDeth](#): > > **Continued Strategic Bombing** - Most or less the same as Blockade- plus it wouldnt work If Japan didn’t surrender after the fire bombing of Tokyo in March 1945, it’s pretty clear that it would take more than conventional bombing. As for waiting for the Soviets, they declared war and sent 1.5 million troops into Manchuria the day after Hiroshima. Japan didn’t surrender then. It was only five days after Nagasaki that the Emperor personally broke a deadlock in the war cabinet and pushed for surrender. Even at that, there was an attempt to kidnap the Emperor before he could personally announce the surrender. I can argue that not only was Hiroshima necessary, but Nagasaki was also necessary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/12 "2026-07-26T23:09:06Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > If Japan didn’t surrender after the fire bombing of Tokyo in March 1945, it’s pretty clear that it would take more than conventional bombing. Yeah, and I hope Bomber Harris rots in Hell for that insane idea that if we purposely kill enough civilians- their morale will fail. I mean, he is British for fuckssake, he had to know the Blitz did nothing of the sort. He just wanted to kill civilians. Same with our Firebombing of Tokyo. > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I can argue that not only was Hiroshima necessary, but Nagasaki was also necessary. Sad but true. And at least those targets were selected for some degree of being miliary targets. And as for that Surrender- > Many elements of the [Imperial Japanese Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army "Imperial Japanese Army") refused to accept that Hirohito was going to end the war, believing it [dishonourable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido "Bushido"). As many as 1,000 officers and army soldiers raided the Imperial Palace on the evening of August 14, 1945 to destroy the recording. The rebels were confused by the layout of the palace and unable to find the recordings, which had been placed in a safe in a small office used by a member of the empress’s retinue and later hidden in a pile of documents. The two phonographs were labelled _original_ and _copy_ and successfully smuggled out of the palace, the original in a [lacquer box](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_lacquerware "Japanese lacquerware") and the copy in a lunch bag. In the early hours of 15 August, rebellious soldiers led by Major [Kenji Hatanaka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Hatanaka "Kenji Hatanaka") attempted to halt the broadcast at the NHK station, but was ordered to desist by the [Eastern District Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_District_Army_(Japan) "Eastern District Army (Japan)").[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast#cite_note-therisingsun-8)[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast#cite_note-Rescript-9) They had seized the building, detained the NHK staff and attempted to broadcast a message urging continued resistance. An officer even threatened announcer Morio Tateno at gunpoint in an attempt to take over the morning broadcast, but Tateno refused. The engineers were then forced to disable all radio transmission. With the coup suppressed, NHK engineers, holding out in the palace for the entire night safely transported recordings of the emperor’s rescript to the station.[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast#cite_note-:0-6) > > [Hirohito surrender broadcast - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast) In other words, that idea about “Peace feelers” was overly optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/13 "2026-07-26T23:16:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > > > I can argue that not only was Hiroshima necessary, but Nagasaki was also necessary. > > Sad but true. And at least those targets were selected for some degree of being miliary targets. I heard they really wanted to nuke Kyoto, but the Secretary of War vetoed that, having actually spent some time there. Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama, and Kokura were all on the target list. > **[1945-05-12-Summary-of-Second-Target-Committee-Meeting.pdf](https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1945-05-12-Summary-of-Second-Target-Committee-Meeting.pdf)** > > 328.52 KB ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/14 "2026-07-26T23:39:36Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I heard they really wanted to nuke Kyoto, but the Secretary of War vetoed that, having actually spent some time there. Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama, and Kokura were all on the target list. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/15 "2026-07-26T23:48:18Z")
Yes, yes it was. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2026, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/16 "2026-07-27T00:11:06Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > I’ll just quote myself: Somehow I forgot this thread from almost a year ago. But in a recent thread one poster claimed it wasnt necessary, and at least one poster agreed. IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2026, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/17 "2026-07-27T01:16:56Z")
The answer, to me, is that it doesn’t matter. When two countries engage in total war and one of them gets an atomic bomb it’s going to use it. Maybe it is not totally, absoultely, necessary to win the war? doesn’t matter because it will have a salutary effect on any third party watching the events unfold. Maybe it’s overkill? doesn’t matter because the belligerent with the weapon has spent a lot of resources to make it and it’s going to damn well not waste them. It’s the ethical thing to do? doesn’t matter because after the first million casualties ethics kinda get out of the picture. The moral of the story is: _don’t get into total wars mmkay?_ ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2026, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/18 "2026-07-27T12:48:59Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > The combined coastlines of the four main islands of Japan is more than 18,000 miles. The idea that the U.S., even with the aid of Britain and the Soviet Union, could effectively blockade that entire area, was wishful thinking. This is not correct. The US was already blockading Japan quite effectively. It wasn’t necessary to have a steel curtain around each port, nor was it needed to stop each fishing boat. Unlike the other major combatants in the war, Japan was highly dependent on shipping for internal transportation of food, coal and other items. Famously, all of its oil, rubber and other resources came from conquered land. Japan didn’t produce enough food for its population and was dependent on its southern islands, colonies and conquered lands for sugar and a lot of its rice, among other foods. The northern island of Hokkaido and the southern main island of Kyushu provided a significant portion of rice and other crops for Japan, and were vulnerable to the loss of sea transportation. Japan started the war with over 6 million tons of shipping, which was less than the amount required for the civilian economy. The shortage was made up with foreign flagged ships. After the war with the Western Allies began, the Army and Navy requisitioned millions of tons of shipping, which immediately started to harm the civilian economy. US submarines had done a number on Japanese merchant ships, and then Operation Starvation contributed to essentially demolishing civilian shipping. In total, almost 9 million tons of shipping were sunk. (Around 4 millions tons of shipping were built during the war so it was possible to sink more than what was originally available.) There was less than 2 million tons by the end, and a lot of those ships were not seaworthy or in good shape. The repeated mining of the harbors reduced the effectiveness of the remaining shipping. By the fall of Okinawa, Japan lost the last imports of sugar, rice, oil, etc. from lands outside the main islands. The civilians outside farm areas were starving and as it turned out there was a rice famine in the summer and fall of 1945. The rate of absenteeism among workers in war industries was at a critical level due to sickness from malnutrition as well as workers taking time off to find food on the black market. Had the war continued, the US was starting to target the railroad structure based on feedback from the European War. That would have exacerbated the food shortages even more. The problem was not that the blockade was ineffective at stopping shipping, it was that the military-led government didn’t care about the lives of the people. US Navy doctrine assumed that the Japanese government was as concerned about civilians lives as the US government would be, and hence, would surrender rather than let the country die of starvation. Similarly, the USAAF also assumed that burning down all the urban population centers, killing hundreds and thousands of civilians and “unhousing” millions of the necessary workers would convince a rational government to quit, instead of committing a national seppuku. Unfortunately, the military-dominated government was prepared to sacrifice the entire nation, blinded by the belief that if only they inflicted enough casualties on the US, they could negotiate a better deal and could remain in power and could keep some of the spoils of war. ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2026, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/19 "2026-07-28T14:14:48Z")
Same for my dad. He was in [Underwater Team 11](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_Demolition_Team). At the time of Hiroshima he was in the states doing extra training for the invasion. After the surrender they were sent to Nagasaki to survey the harbour and docks. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2026, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hiroshima-necessary/1031923/20 "2026-07-28T14:20:19Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > As for waiting for the Soviets, they declared war and sent 1.5 million troops into Manchuria the day after Hiroshima. Japan didn’t surrender then. It was only five days after Nagasaki that the Emperor personally broke a deadlock in the war cabinet and pushed for surrender. Even at that, there was an attempt to kidnap the Emperor before he could personally announce the surrender. In addition, it would likely mean another pariah state. We would most likely have ended up with a North Japan, probably with a capital in Tokyo. It would most likely be every bit as nasty as North Korea currently is. I think it’s a safe bet that Stalin would have deposed and likely executed Hirohito (who as it turned out could be a decent guy if provided with the right environment) and installed a Japanese version of the Kim family into power. There would be a South Japan, probably with a capital in Kyoto and at best another current day South Korea. More likely would be both South Korea and South Japan as officially western allies, but looking more like a “third world” western allied country (Mexico would be a good comparison), rather than the economically developed countries we actually have. Or possibly the Kim family would be in charge of a united Korea just as bed as the current day North Korea. At least in the scenarios that I can imagine, they are all worse than what actually happened.