# Was Hitler a Christian(And why clarity is important on this issue) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 1, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018 "2006-05-01T23:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/41 "2006-05-17T10:22:55Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > It was a new, untested government existing during extremely stressful times. It isn’t comparable to the current US system. The US was doing fairly well economically after WWII, but one can envision that had that not been true that a real push for conversion to Communism could have occurred. Who knows if it would have succeeded, but still the point is that this would occur due to a poor economy caused by outside forces, and not due to any problem with the contemporary government nor due to real logic and debate by the masses. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/42 "2006-05-17T11:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > So, are you saying that makes Paul a bigot? I just want to make sure, because if you say yes, I’ll have a very cute answer for you Sorry to have taken so long to get back to this, life’s been like that. No, I’m not saying Paul was a bigot. I’m saying Paul was a human being, with human flaws, who became frustrated when groups that he preached at did not accept his message. And let that frustration vent itself as anger against the group. Unfortunately, in the case of the Jews, his anger echoed down the generations as divine sanction for persecutions. However, feel free to make your cute response anyhow. I always like cute responses. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/43 "2006-05-17T12:51:05Z")
Many German Jews refused to see the handwriting on the wall. “It can’t happen here,” they said. “That sort of thing happens in Russia or Poland. Not in civilized Germany.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/44 "2006-05-18T10:18:42Z")
Fair enough. However had the Nazis not eliminated democracy and other political parties after getting elected they would’ve been voted out of office sooner or later. So transparency of government, open and free criticism and a permanent series of elections with free parties is a good way to avoid another Hitler. There is still a difference between an established liberal democracy vs a new non liberal one. Recent history is full of alot of examples of democracies being overthrown by the military, but most/all of those were new democracies that were barely functional. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/45 "2006-05-18T12:28:08Z")
This is quickly moving into a Great Debates topic. “Can it happen here?” isn’t only tangentially related to “Was Hitler a Christian?” ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/46 "2006-05-18T12:28:27Z")
This is quickly moving into a Great Debates topic. “Can it happen here?” is only tangentially related to “Was Hitler a Christian?” ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/47 "2006-05-21T08:10:05Z")
From the original post: Hitler was just one guy, with an extraodinarary amout of charisma, an addiction to methamphetamine, and quite possibly a heartfelt belief that he and others like him were really “God’s Chosen.” The addication aspect I think is pretty harsh. He may or may not have had a dependancy. I really don’t know, but I doubt whether he would have had it from his early days in power. Is there any citation for when this started? I’m not trying to defend the guy. I believe he was almost as bad as Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/48 "2006-05-23T11:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] No, I’m not saying Paul was a bigot. … However, feel free to make your cute response anyhow. I always like cute responses. [/QUOTE] The OP called Paul a bigot, to which I challenged, and you responded with a particular reference to Jews. It just so happens that Paul was a Jew himself and to suggest that his negative references to Jews is an example of bigotry is no more correct than any American who puts down other Americans for their religion or politics. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/49 "2006-05-23T18:48:04Z")
Well… Paul may have been born a Jew, but I suspect that if you asked him (late in his career) he would have denied it utterly. And I think that you’re splitting hairs as to whether he was a “bigot” or just “brimming over with racial hatred.” That’s semantics. The fact is that his letters basically assert that the Jews are damned to hell, and paved the road for a couple of millenia of persecutions, murders, looting and pillaging, all in the name of the God of Love. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/50 "2006-05-23T19:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Well… Paul may have been born a Jew, but I suspect that if you asked him (late in his career) he would have denied it utterly. And I think that you’re splitting hairs as to whether he was a “bigot” or just “brimming over with racial hatred.” That’s semantics. The fact is that his letters basically assert that the Jews are damned to hell, and paved the road for a couple of millenia of persecutions, murders, looting and pillaging, all in the name of the God of Love. [/QUOTE] You mean passages like: “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid.”? or: “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/51 "2006-05-23T23:56:54Z")
Hmmm. Cute questions. ---
**Author:** ![thshdw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@thshdw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thshdw)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018/52 "2006-05-24T22:43:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know if I agree. Research has been done into the psychology of dictatorships and usually there are a few key ingredients to a truly dangerous dictatorship > -the individual means nothing except as a tool to be used by the state > -truly evil people are everywhere in and outside of the nation and must be stopped. Losing the battle against this evil is too horrifying to even risk letting happen. > -the end justifies the means > -the future will be a paradise, but the short term may be hard > -there is an ideal, utopian state, but we are not there yet. We are currently a flawed state that needs massive reform. The leaders can provide this reform. > -all criticism is a form of treason and weakens the country, giving the enemies a needed edge and must be dealt with brutally (see point 2). This sets me up quite well for my final post. Thank you all for submitting ideas and helping me understand this topic, I really wasn’t sure myself. Here is where I answer the question. (Sort of) Hitler used a variety of instruments to tool his machine of destruction. Christianity was one of them. The machine is analogous to a hand powered drill. Hitler, or the high ranking Nazi officials around him, were in control of the machine turning the bit. They were the intelligent factor, influencing the movement of the drill. The drill has several gears and cogs, each turn to make the machine less destructible by internal strain. These gears and cogs were things such as Nationalism, Militarism, economic distress, and Christianity. The bit was the army, the Luftwaffe, the S.S., and the gestapo. They were the ones who carried out the functions that they were told. (I realize that they did more than this, but for the purpose of illustration things must be simplified to retain relevancy.) The latter two parts depend on one another to retain order. The former part, however, being intelligent and controlling, did not depend upon the latter, but instead used them to commit the destruction he would have commited on a small scale on a large scale. Whether he believed them or not we may never know. Clarity is important upon this issue to understand how he used Christianity. > [@](#): > > Things like open, accountable government with empathetic leadership; a government made of slow bureaucracy filled with checks and balances; realism that makes people realize ‘utopia’ is a dangerous fantasy and a tolerance of/respect for ones enemies (instead of a fear that they will create hell on earth) are what are needed to fight these things. Hitler used a thoroughly Christian concept of how utopia will come about. BUT Hitler used the aspects of Christianty that he either felt were important or that suited his needs. This is where the dichotomy of why comes in. In the manipulative case, he needed to make people believe what he believed. Christianity is a convenient and powerful engine. In the psychotic case, people believed it because he believed it. The key ingredients to a dictatorship take many forms, and Christianity makes an excellent excuse in the western world. Religion is not the only tool, nor is it a necessary tool, for a dictator to take power and retain power. It is simply a viable tool. > [@](#): > > Cicero > > The addication aspect I think is pretty harsh. He may or may not have had a dependancy. I really don’t know, but I doubt whether he would have had it from his early days in power. Is there any citation for when this started? I’m not trying to defend the guy. I believe he was almost as bad as Stalin. [Theodore Morell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Morell) Here is one reference to Hitler’s addiction. There is also an excellent special on the History Channel (High Hitler, but they don’t carry it on their own website anymore, Try ebay) and quite a few books, some penned by Dr. Morell himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-christian-and-why-clarity-is-important-on-this-issue/355018.md?page=2)