# Was Hitler a good man? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967 "2013-12-10T11:21:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/101 "2013-12-16T16:06:54Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Tila Tequila thinks so. My first thought was, of course not. But that’s just popular prejudice. Thinking about it further, if he thought what he was doing would make the world a better place, wouldn’t that justify it? After all Bomber Harris probably killed a million civilians with no benefit gained at all, but isn’t normally condemned. Or, for that matter, the individual soldier who kills one of the enemy. > > So, the first question is, did Hitler really think that the world would be a better place if he achieved his ends, wiped out the Jews and the rest, and conquered a large part of the world. > > The second is, would that justify the actions taken. I suppose the question is, if you honestly believed the existence of Jews to lead inexorably to the enslavement and diminution of mankind, wouldn’t it be your duty to kill as many as possible? > > Obviously he didn’t actually **do** good, but we can’t issue moral judgements against people who thought they were doing good on the basis of their ignorance or delusions. Hence the laws of insanity, you can’t be held responsible for your actions if you don’t know that what you’re doing is wrong. All (or almost all) people think they are good. Deep, down where it matters they are a good person and what they do is for the best. I would bet Hitler thought that deep down he was a good man doing what is needed/best. Now, a few people are really ‘good people’, a few really bad and most just completely selfish…therefore most people are not really all that much of a ‘good person’. It’s like a sense of humor. Most everyone thinks they have a sense of humor, but many don’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/102 "2013-12-16T17:00:06Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Actually, no. He wanted all Jews out of the Reich, which he envisaged would stretch more or less from the Atlantic to the Urals, but he didn’t have any great problem with Jews being elsewhere - if anything, if other nations were “degraded” by an admixture of Jewish blood, and handicapped in other ways by having a resident Jewish population, so much the better; it would help keep the Germans in the top dog position. He only embarked on a programme of total extermination of European Jews in 1941 because he felt getting rid of Jews was an important war aim, and in wartime conditions deportation was not feasible. > > As for other non-Aryan nations, they intended to use them, even within the Reich, for servile labour. In the long run, it’s reasonable to assume that an aggressive, militaristic dictator who tries to kill all of ethnic group X in a region might want to kill all of that same ethnic group in other regions. If you’re saying that Hitler would have left the rest of the world’s Jews alone forever if he had conquered Europe, that seems like a pretty bold (and ridiculous) thing to say. I’m saying that it’s reasonable to assume that he would not have left the rest of the world’s Jews alone. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/103 "2013-12-16T19:18:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Doesn’t change the fact that the South seceded and attacked the North because of slavery. The Civil War was first and foremost about slavery- so said the Secession Declarations of many of the southern states, and so said the Confederate leaders themselves. Back then, there was no doubt that slavery was the cause of the war. By attacking the North, you mean Fort Sumpter? The island that was part of South Carolina? Southerners believed they were fighting for self-determination: the same right their grandparents fought for during the American Revolution. If you’d asked the average Southern soldier why he was fighting he’d have said, “because you (Northern soldiers) are down here.” (Paraphrasing Shelby Foote.) > [@](#): > > Whether or not it was fantasy, Japan attacked us and invaded US territories like the Philippines, and it was prudent and rational for us to respond with the full force of our military might. No argument there. > [@](#): > > Hitler declared war on the United States. And there’s no way to know exactly what Hitler planned to do if he had won in Europe. I’m glad we got involved and fought Germany- America is stronger, and the world is better, because of it. Hitler couldn’t make it across the English Channel - which you can see across, on a clear day, or so I’m told. How the heck was he going to make it across the Atlantic? I’m glad too, but we can be glad and still stick to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/104 "2013-12-16T19:27:04Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > :rolleyes:Seriously? You consider the enslavement of 1.5 million people “not particularly harsh?” You consider locking hundreds of women and children inside of a church, setting the church on fire and machine gunning them as they try to escape being burned alive “not particularly harsh?” You know, what happened in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and Berlin was nothing compared to what happened at Auschwitz. Strangely enough people would look at me like I was high if I were to say bombing Dresden wasn’t particularly harsh in the context of war. > > Honestly, were you even aware that Germany deported 1.5 million French citizens to work as slave laborers before I told you and when you initially made the statement > Because frankly, saying the enslavement of 1.5 million of them was not particularly harsh is entirely absurd. Countries do not routinely go about enslaving the vanquished, and haven’t done so in millennia. Not counting the millions of slaves - actual slaves, in the sense of being owned people - in the United States, of course. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/105 "2013-12-16T22:36:30Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > By attacking the North, you mean Fort Sumpter? The island that was part of South Carolina? Yes. They shot at United States soldiers (I should have said “the US” instead of “the North”). Think about that- think about any servicemen that you may have known in your life (like me, for example :))- and think about a group of armed men shooting at them on American soil. > [@](#): > > Southerners believed they were fighting for self-determination: the same right their grandparents fought for during the American Revolution. If you’d asked the average Southern soldier why he was fighting he’d have said, “because you (Northern soldiers) are down here.” (Paraphrasing Shelby Foote.) Undoubtedly, for the average Confederate soldier. But their leaders attacked American soldiers because of slavery. The South seceded because of slavery. Any “self-determination” was about the right to own slaves. So said the leaders at the time, and so said the documents of secession. There was no doubt why the South started the war back then. Any talks of “states rights” ultimately boiled down to slavery, 90% of the time. > [@](#): > > Hitler couldn’t make it across the English Channel - which you can see across, on a clear day, or so I’m told. How the heck was he going to make it across the Atlantic? I was hypothesizing a world in which he conquered Europe (which would have included crossing the channel). > [@](#): > > I’m glad too, but we can be glad and still stick to the facts. Which I have… along with reasonable supposition. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/106 "2013-12-16T22:38:31Z")
Any talk of “self-determination” as a cause for the Civil War is laughable, of course, considering that there were millions of people in the South who did not have the slightest bit of “self-determination” in their own lives, and almost certainly would have been against secession had they the rights to express themselves. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/107 "2013-12-16T23:15:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes. They shot at United States soldiers (I should have said “the US” instead of “the North”). Think about that- think about any servicemen that you may have known in your life (like me, for example :))- and think about a group of armed men shooting at them on American soil. > > Undoubtedly, for the average Confederate soldier. But their leaders attacked American soldiers because of slavery. The South seceded because of slavery. Any “self-determination” was about the right to own slaves. So said the leaders at the time, and so said the documents of secession. There was no doubt why the South started the war back then. Any talks of “states rights” ultimately boiled down to slavery, 90% of the time. It’s a little more complicated than that. Some states seceded because they didn’t believe Lincoln when he said he said he wasn’t going to free the slaves. Others left after Lincoln began mobilizing troops to invade the South. > [@](#): > > I was hypothesizing a world in which he conquered Europe (which would have included crossing the channel). > > Which I have… along with reasonable supposition. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/108 "2013-12-16T23:16:54Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It’s a little more complicated than that. Some states seceded because they didn’t believe Lincoln when he said he said he wasn’t going to free the slaves. Others left after Lincoln began mobilizing troops to invade the South. Perhaps a little more complicated, but it’s still true to say that the Civil War was mostly about slavery, and the South’s secession was mostly about slavery. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/109 "2013-12-16T23:17:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Any talk of “self-determination” as a cause for the Civil War is laughable, of course, considering that there were millions of people in the South who did not have the slightest bit of “self-determination” in their own lives, and almost certainly would have been against secession had they the rights to express themselves. The same was true during the American Revolution. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/110 "2013-12-16T23:19:38Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The same was true during the American Revolution. True, although the American Revolution had the virtue of not being about slavery. The South seceded because of slavery- we declared our independence due to other things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/111 "2013-12-16T23:26:51Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Others left after Lincoln began mobilizing troops to invade the South. That was three days after the CSA declared war on the United States. This seems to be in keeping with your earlier posts about Churchill. You blame the victim for fighting back against the attacker. ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/112 "2013-12-17T03:04:43Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Look, if you have a beef with Israeli treatment of Palestinians politically, or in terms of rights, you may have a point. > > However, you’re under a wrong impression if you think a military mismatch (“slingshots versus Apaches”) is a moral issue. No one can be expected to let the other party have a “fair” shot at killing him – at least, not since dueling was banned. Every nation-state (and many nation-state aspirants) equips its forces intending to have the advantage […] Sure. And that’s why I fully support ‘surgical’ drone strikes on sanctioned terrorist targets in Pakistan. An air-to-surface missile from a drone to the noggin of a known terrorist is aeons more in-keeping with the rules of war _and_ justifiable than any bread knife decapitation of a journalist could ever be. However, my gripe is more to do with Israel’s ‘creep’ in the region and how it enforces this ‘metastasis’. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/113 "2013-12-17T17:00:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That was three days after the CSA declared war on the United States. This seems to be in keeping with your earlier posts about Churchill. You blame the victim for fighting back against the attacker. I’m not sure what you mean by “declared war”, unless you’re talking about Fort Sumter. The South seceded, and the North invaded. The first actual battle was in Virginia. In fact, almost every major battle was in the South, except for Gettysburg. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/114 "2013-12-17T17:30:30Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “declared war”, unless you’re talking about Fort Sumter. The South seceded, and the North invaded. The first actual battle was in Virginia. In fact, almost every major battle was in the South, except for Gettysburg. Fort Sumter was taken in a battle. Armed men (Conferates) attacked and shot at US soldiers at Fort Sumter. The Battle of Fort Sumter was a battle that happened. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/115 "2013-12-17T17:55:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fort Sumter was taken in a battle. Armed men (Conferates) attacked and shot at US soldiers at Fort Sumter. The Battle of Fort Sumter was a battle that happened. It should also be noted that the attack on Fort Sumter was only the last, and most intolerable, incident of a pre-war campaign of seizure of federal property - arsenals, post offices, mints, court houses, custom houses - by the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/116 "2013-12-17T18:03:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Not counting the millions of slaves - actual slaves, in the sense of being owned people - in the United States, of course. Yet another non sequitur. How is this in any way relevant to the statement that ‘Countries do not routinely go about enslaving the vanquished, and haven’t done so in millennia’ or back up your outrageous claim that German occupation of France was not particularly harsh when they used 1.5 million of them as slave labor. Here’s a clue for you: the Union did not enslave the citizens of the CSA when the war was won. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That was three days after the CSA declared war on the United States. This seems to be in keeping with your earlier posts about Churchill. You blame the victim for fighting back against the attacker. Indeed. There’s little point in debating someone so blind to reality that they claim the US Civil War started when the North invaded the South. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/117 "2013-12-17T19:27:37Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > In fact, almost every major battle was in the South, except for Gettysburg. Nobody’s claiming the Confederate decision to declare war was a wise one. Robert Toombs, the Confederate Secretary of State, told Jefferson Davis the CSA could not win a war against the United States and should do everything it could to avoid a war - even accepting America keeping possession of Ft Sumter if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/118 "2013-12-18T09:25:58Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > As I said, the morality of strategic bombing is often debated … and there was benefit in the strategic bombing, regardless of one’s views on the morality of it The benefit in strategic bombing is debated, as well as the morality. Generalizing, German and English people tend to think that strategic bombing is moral but ineffective. Japanese and American people tend to think that strategic bombing is effective but immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/119 "2013-12-18T09:40:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also keep in mind that the American Civil War Thread started out as [Was Hitler a good man?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16923373#post16923373), and …Always comes back to the American Civil War, doesn’t it. Not that I’m complaning. Adds a little levity to an otherwise ponderous and predictable discussion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967/120 "2013-12-18T10:08:42Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Thread started out as [Was Hitler a good man?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16923373#post16923373), and > > …Always comes back to the American Civil War, doesn’t it. > > Not that I’m complaning. Adds a little levity to an otherwise ponderous and predictable discussion. In fairness, many Civil War threads (and many threads in general) always come back to Hitler and the Nazis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-hitler-a-good-man/675967.md?page=7)