# Was I a jerk in this situation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 6, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379 "2010-08-06T07:09:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/161 "2010-08-07T05:40:01Z")
Something else to bear in mind is that **madmonk** is the only person in this thread who has met Mr. Mind-If-I-Join-You. So he’s the only one who can gauge how thin or thick his skin might be. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/162 "2010-08-07T07:23:30Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > He did not ask if he could sit down. In fact, I had glimpsed him earlier in the room and put my head further down in the book. > > In my industry, you spend a lot of times with colleagues in hotels and guest houses around the world; you kind of learn to respect each other’s space even when you are forced into close proximity. This is especially true when you are working a six day work week and eating a minimum of 12 meals a week together. Some of you might not spend a lot of time traveling for work, but there comes a time when you really want to be outside of your room, but don’t really want to spend time with people from work, in those cases, reading in the cafe, or lobby are about all that’s available to you. > > \*\*I don’t understand why his chosen activity: talking to me, trumps my chosen activity: reading a book. > \*\* > ETA: I think there are some people who see a person reading and think, “poor guy, he is stuck having to read a book,” they don’t understand that reading a book can be a great pleasure for us. bolding mine. It doesn’t, and shouldn’t. You are under **no obligation** , social or otherwise, to entertain someone you barely know. Family or friends, or closer acquaintances, sure…you’re more likely to put down the book. But frankly no one has the right to demand attention from anyone else under the onus that they’re being socially unacceptable (or awkward, or what have you) if they don’t. Bottom line it should be YOUR choice to say yes, and you are doing nothing wrong if you say, (paraphrased) “if you don’t mind, I’m going to finish my book…” ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/163 "2010-08-07T13:05:50Z")
As someone who’s favorite “me time” treat is to go out to eat alone with a good book, I am most definitely in **madmonk** ’s camp. It sounds as though he did engage to the coworker a bit, enough for basic politeness. The coworker probably was one of those people uncomfortable with the thought of sitting alone. He may have been quite happy to be ignored, just so long as there was someone else at the table. Still a bloody imposition on the OP though. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/164 "2010-08-08T06:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > All that means is that Miss Manners is a jerk. I don’t know why people seem to think she’s so great if she thinks she has the right to try to passive-aggressively force people to follow the rules that she herself made up. No, Miss Manners (Judith Martin) doesn’t make up the rules. She tells us what the rules are, and what the appropriate responses are to given circumstances, but she doesn’t make them up. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/165 "2010-08-08T06:37:08Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/166 "2010-08-08T07:56:36Z")
I am an introvert who would normally prefer time with a book over time with a person, but I have to say that I feel the op handled the situation poorly. First the op didn’t ask who was ruder or if he was justified in being rude, he asked if he was a jerk and I believe the answer is yes. Someone else stated it earlier but it’s been pretty much ignored, place yourself in the other person’s shoes. You walk into a restaurant and there is someone you know sitting eating breakfast and reading a book. The options are that the reader wants to be alone and won’t appreciate the interruption or is reading to fill time and would think you rude if you sat somewhere else, either way there is potential for embarrassment. The only thing you can do is to go and sit with him or ask to sit with him. Note that asking to sit doesn’t really solve the problem. The dance has started and the correct answer is “yes you may sit”. You may have minimsed embarrassment at this stage by clearly stating that you don’t mean to be rude but you’d rather eat alone with your book. He could then gracefully go and sit at another table. This could have happened if he sat without asking or if he asked first. By stating that you were going to keep reading but not saying directly that you wanted to be left alone he’s left in an awkward position of not really being able to make a graceful exit, especially if it takes him a few moments to realise that you really want to be left alone. The longer he sits there the harder it is to leave without feeling like a complete prat. So I think it was badly handled. If it happens again I suggest more clearly saying what you really want right at the start. He also should’ve asked to sit as that would make it easier for you to say what you want. When you are trying to work out if you were a jerk or not you need to look at the situation from the other person’s point of view and you don’t seem to be doing this. I think you KNOW you were a bit rude and what you really want us to tell you is that it was justified. I don’t think it was, from what you have said it doesn’t sound like he was being intentionally rude but I think you were. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/167 "2010-08-08T16:55:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People whine about us saying that his right is higher than the OP’s. but the OP is just doing the exact opposite, saying his time is worth more than the other guy’s. Sure, his right to conversation doesn’t override your right to read. But your right to read doesnt’ override his right to conversation. He has a right to converse with a particular person? How do you figure? For that matter, from where is this alleged right to conversation derived? Where dose it apply? Are there any situations where there is no right to conversation? ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/168 "2010-08-08T17:30:21Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People whine about us saying that his right is higher than the OP’s. but the OP is just doing the exact opposite, saying his time is worth more than the other guy’s. Sure, his right to conversation doesn’t override your right to read. But your right to read doesnt’ override his right to conversation. He was already reading when approached by the other person, so that is why I feel the other person was more rude to expect him to stop reading and talk to him. If he hadn’t been reading, but just had the book by his plate, then fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/169 "2010-08-08T17:32:28Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > People whine about us saying that his right is higher than the OP’s. but the OP is just doing the exact opposite, saying his time is worth more than the other guy’s. Sure, his right to conversation doesn’t override your right to read. But your right to read doesnt’ override his right to conversation. > > He has a right to converse with a particular person? How do you figure? For that matter, from where is this alleged right to conversation derived? Where dose it apply? Are there any situations where there is no right to conversation? It is a PUBLIC eating establisment. The OP has NO right to control the seat on the other side. The rude coworker also has FREEDOM of speach don’t you know. LOOK IT UP PEOPLE! Like I said, if you boil it down to “rights” vs “trying to be nice” you’ve totally missed the boat and assholishness on both sides easily ensues. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/170 "2010-08-08T19:46:11Z")
> [@](#): > > You walk into a restaurant and there is someone you know sitting eating breakfast and reading a book. The options are that the reader wants to be alone and won’t appreciate the interruption or is reading to fill time and would think you rude if you sat somewhere else, either way there is potential for embarrassment. The only thing you can do is to go and sit with him or ask to sit with him. Note that asking to sit doesn’t really solve the problem. The dance has started and the correct answer is “yes you may sit”. That’s ONE of the correct answers. Other correct answers might include “I’m expecting someone to join me” (remember, this was a twotop) or “I really want to finish this book/keep reading”. The reason why it’s important to ASK someone if they mind if you join them is to give them an opportunity to object! And that’s probably why the Clueless Coworker DIDN’T ask…because he didn’t want to hear that the OP could possibly find a book more interesting than keeping CC entertained. You are supposed to ASK if you can have this dance, you do not simply pull someone up out of their seat and start dancing. Nobody is obliged to dance with you. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/171 "2010-08-08T20:04:57Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > And that’s probably why the Clueless Coworker DIDN’T ask…because he didn’t want to hear that the OP could possibly find a book more interesting than keeping CC entertained. > . Again with the ‘Poor Coworker can’t even function or have a meal alone without a breakdown.’ Maybe that’s true. I think it’s just as likely that coworker saw the OP and figured he better go sit with him 'cus when you’re in a country 3000 miles from home and you only know 4 people you better be friendish with them. Was he correct? No, obviously - the OP wanted to read. Fine. I think it’s a HUGE stretch to suggest that the interloper was demanding to be entertained though he was probably just trying to not be rude. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/172 "2010-08-08T20:08:04Z")
But the OP seemed to make clear that this group is together six days a week from morning to night. They spend enough time being friendish that no one’s going to go into a decline because they had one meal without conversation. Or at least, they shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/173 "2010-08-08T20:22:25Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > But the OP seemed to make clear that this group is together six days a week from morning to night. They spend enough time being friendish that no one’s going to go into a decline because they had one meal without conversation. Or at least, they shouldn’t. No, of course not. However, to me it’s just as likely that coworker walked in and saw **madmonk28** sitting there reading and thought to himself ‘Jeez, I guess I better go sit with the guy or he’ll think I’m a dick.’ which he did and then got publicly dissed by **madmonk28** which I think was unnecessarily rude. Assuming the project is going on for at least a few more weeks, **madmonk28** could have been a bit more gracious this time and just mentioned how much he enjoys using his down time to read his book while still engaging the guy. Then he would be in the clear if the following week buddy showed up again, **madmonk** could just play the ‘downtime, I’m reading card’ and it would be the other guy that was on the hook for any social rudeness. Anyhow - in the grand scheme of things I don’t think it was a particularly big deal; however, I also think it’s hilarious that the some folks think that coworker is a anxiety ridden blob who’s going to lose his shit if he needs to eat one meal alone and how dare he use **madmonk28** as a free therapist, when to me it seems just as likely that he was just being friendish. And yes, he should have asked if he could sit down. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/174 "2010-08-08T20:44:17Z")
If the coworker had asked if he could join the OP, then I’d consider that to be a much more friendly gesture, rather than an entitled one. I enjoy reading, and I read a LOT. In this situation (which would be very unlikely for me), if I’d been reading and someone that I knew slightly asked to join me, I’d probably invite him to sit down and spend a little time chatting. In the same situation, though, if someone just plopped down and clearly expected me to put down my book and entertain him, I probably would have said that I wanted to keep reading in my scant time off. I DO read when I’m eating alone, but if someone I know greets me, then I put down my book and invite him/her to join me. If they sit with me, I talk to them. If they just want to say hi and go on, then I say hi. Either way, it’s OK with me, and I realize that I’m a pretty rare reader in that I don’t mind discussing my current book. However, the only time that I’d sit down at a table when someone was reading, without asking, is with my immediate family. And even then I wouldn’t insist that they talk to me. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/175 "2010-08-09T07:01:20Z")
Update, so it’s been a few days and we have managed to get the coworker to a therapist. He hasn’t been able to eat since the incident, but his mother was able to call and convince him to come out of the room. I abjectly appologized and we both agreed that I am worse than Hitler (who by all accounts was a surprisingly charming breakfast companion). Actually, we’ve had a couple of breakfasts and lunch together. There is no apparent tension between us and tomorrow he ends his consultancy and gets on a plane to go home. We work in different sectors, so we will likely never each other again. Oddly enough, I asked another colleague how her day off was and she said that a different coworker sat down at her table for breakfast and started talking about work, kiling her mood. If those two people had just sat together, so much pain could have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/176 "2010-08-09T07:27:06Z")
It’s obvious that most of your co-workers view each other somewhat as “family” - being in a foreign land and grouped together as you all are - and it probably never occurs to most of them that they _should_ ask permission to sit with each other. I’d be interested to know what was said, if anything, during your subsequent breakfasts and lunch with this guy. Did he approach you to join him the next time you ate together, or did you invite him? Did the subject never come up? Etc. Inquiring minds want to know. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/177 "2010-08-09T07:47:58Z")
The only other breakfasts, lunches are on workdays. We only get Friday off so there has been only work breakfasts. These are meetings that happen to have food. Lunchtime we ask around to ask who wants to go where. This is important because we have limited project vehicles so we need to coordinate if people want to go out. Going to lunch has to be coordinated with people who have meetings (which of course, take precedence). There really isn’t any casual meal time until the evenings for six days of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/178 "2010-08-09T08:06:16Z")
Okay. Thanks for the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379/179 "2010-08-09T15:16:42Z")
Dammit. More multi-quote problems. For anybody who still persists in insisting that the OP was in the wrong: I think any further discussion would be moot, as we clearly have different ideas about what defines etiquette. You, apparently, believe that politeness requires acquiescing to every request or order presented to you, no matter how rude or inconvenient. I, on the other hand, believe in fulfilling my obligation to others without being a fucking doormat. We will have to agree to disagree. And because I’ve asked, now you \*have \*to do it, or you’re being rude, right? :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-i-a-jerk-in-this-situation/549379.md?page=8)