# Was invading Iraq really the worst decision in the history of U.S. foreign policy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573 "2006-12-10T16:32:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/41 "2006-12-11T18:49:34Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Except maybe, Jimmy Carter’s decision to let the Iranian militants off easy when they violated international law by seizing the American Embassy in 1979. It’s possible that the last 27 years would have been significantly different if he had treated an act of war as an act of war. [/QUOTE] Could you elaborate? What should we have done then, and what difference would it have made in the years since? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/42 "2006-12-11T18:52:58Z")
I was thinking about nominating the War of 1812 but as I read the previous posts it seems to me that the long-term effects were minimal. In fact, I think if it prevented the annexation of Canada it was a good thing. I think Canada is just fine as it is and it would not have been better for any of us to have it be part of the US. Vietnam was a mistake, to be sure. But the correction was much simpler. Once you decide that the world is essentially the same no matter which Vietnamese faction prevailed, then pulling out made little difference and, except for the thousands killed, the war has had few consequences. Contrast that to Iraq, where this mistake could have dire consequences for generations. A stable but despotic government was overthrown in a vital area of the world and the ensuing civil war may go on for years. You really can’t do much worse than that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/43 "2006-12-11T18:54:54Z")
**RTFirefly** kind of touched on it, but in my mind, the greatest blunder in American foreign policy was absolutely the outbreak of isolationism following World War I. Although it wasn’t a policy we can pin on a single person, it was a severe mistake that (perhaps arguably) touched upon many of the tragedies that followed: Hitler and the outbreak of World War II, the Holocaust, the Japanese invasion of China, the economic catastrophe of the Great Depression, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and many other terrible events. I’m not saying that an active, even interventionist, foreign policy would have prevented any of these events, only that it probably would have contained them to some degree, and that would have made a hell of a lot of difference to a hell of a lot of people. But #2 on my foreign policy disaster list is probably a tie between Iraq and Vietnam. With the advantage of hindsight, Vietnam was an inconsequential backwater with a huge American cost in life; the blunder in Iraq has the potential to have huge consequences in the next ten years. I see on preview that **Plan B** seems to be implying that we should have attacked Iran (beyond the ill-fated rescue mission). That would absolutely shoot to number 2 on my blunder list had that happened. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/44 "2006-12-11T19:18:15Z")
I would cast my vote for Iraq being worse than Vietnam for the simple reason that the reasons given for going to Iraq turned out be completely false, from the WMD to the threat Saddam posed as a regional power. I must admit I don’t know a lot ofdetail about Vietnam, but weren’t our reasons for being there not based on an out and out deception? I know there was deception in the conduct of the war, but the cold war rationale was pretty valid. Iraq is like a misdiagnosis followed up by quackery. Vietnam just struck me as quackery. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/45 "2006-12-11T19:39:51Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] So downstream the difference has been a halving of the size of the United States and all that comes with it. I realize that this is likely viewed by our Canadian posters as a **good** thing, and I wouldn’t presume to disagree with them on the issue. But in terms of US foreign policy costs having Canada in the fold for the last 200 years would be better for the US than not. [/QUOTE] It’d be hard to point to any specific advantage the U.S. would gain by owning Canada; economically they’re nearly the same country anyway, and Canada has been an ally in every national security issue that’s mattered. Indeed, consider this; if there was no Canada, then that country could not have participated in the First and Second World Wars as early as it did; instead, Canada’s human and industrial potential would have had to wait until the general U.S entry into the war - which would have been a significant disadvantage for the Allies until American entry, and therefore a bad thing, sooner or later, for the USA. I would disagree that the War of 1812 was all that bad a decision, though. I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the results by overemphasiing the military win/loss column. Admittedly, it was a series of military fiascoes. However, the end result of the war was to end British influence and interference in U.S. expansion, a great thing for the USA. As one writer put it; in the War of 1812, the USA and Canada BOTH won. The British didn’t care, and the Indians lost. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/46 "2006-12-11T20:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Vietnam was an inconsequential backwater with a huge American cost in life; [/QUOTE] That to me is what makes it trivial compared to the Iraq fiasco. Vietnam WAS an inconsequential backwater, Iraq is at the heart of the Muslim World while we are in the middle of struggle with Islamist extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/47 "2006-12-11T20:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] I must admit I don’t know a lot ofdetail about Vietnam, but weren’t our reasons for being there not based on an out and out deception? [/QUOTE] Actually, the second Gulf of Tonkin incident, which provoked Congress to authorize the Vietnam war, involved one of our ships being attacked by North Vietnamese tordepo boats that did not exist. Although there has recently been some scholarship to challenge the view, it is often argued that President Johnson knew for certain that there was no second attack on our ships while he was pressing Congress to authorize war to respond to (fabricated) aggression from North Vietnam. The alternative view is basically that Johnson bought into a fabrication by the Navy and used that as a rationale for going to Congress. Either way, on the Truth-O-Meter, the rationale to get us really deeply involved in Vietnam was either equal to (or in my book, much worse) than the faulty intelligence that built the case for war against Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/48 "2006-12-11T21:19:07Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Actually, the second Gulf of Tonkin incident, which provoked Congress to authorize the Vietnam war, involved one of our ships being attacked by North Vietnamese tordepo boats that did not exist. Although there has recently been some scholarship to challenge the view, it is often argued that President Johnson knew for certain that there was no second attack on our ships while he was pressing Congress to authorize war to respond to (fabricated) aggression from North Vietnam. The alternative view is basically that Johnson bought into a fabrication by the Navy and used that as a rationale for going to Congress. Either way, on the Truth-O-Meter, the rationale to get us really deeply involved in Vietnam was either equal to (or in my book, much worse) than the faulty intelligence that built the case for war against Iraq. [/QUOTE] I will humbly concede that vietnam was chock full od lies and deeption, but after reading the book in the OP I find it hard to imagine it could be worse. Equal, I’ll buy, but worse? The lies and deceptions pereptuated during the current conflict is staggering. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/49 "2006-12-11T21:30:33Z")
I’m against the idea of caring about ranking worsts. Just avoid doing big stupid things, thanks! But I will agree with Ravenman that we need to call some attention to post-WWI. It’s quite possible that if racist Wilson hadn’t snubbed the Japanese allies and left them out of everything important in the post-war treaty era, the hardliners and militarists in Japan might never have been able to make the case that Japan had no other path to greatness beside conquest. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/50 "2006-12-11T22:13:08Z")
I know I’m coming a mite late to this game with little to add, but just wanted to say I think **madmonk** makes some very good points about the current environment in which we embarked on this little excursion. It seems pretty clear that the international “balance of power” has the potential to change pretty rapidly. For a brief moment after the fall of the SU, the US was the sole superpower. But since then we have seen the growth of the EU, India, China and SE Asia as much more serious competitors. For decades it became apparent that the Arab nations were not content with the historical status quo, and some revisiting of relationship between West and Middle East was ripe. Technology and markets are changing, and the US will be facing significant domestic costs in the near future as its workforce ages, education stagnates, and infrastructure continues to crumble. And we’ll have $300 billion (and counting) less to spend on those needs. Simply put, the unnecessary volitional choice to invade Iraq came at a time that I feel we very much could not afford the price. In some ways, the decision to invade Iraq can be seen both as an act _and_ an omission(s) - failure to seize upon the moment to increase international ties, failure to invest in technologies and markets of tomorrow, failure to try to rewrite various “game rules” in a way that would favor us for the near future. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/51 "2006-12-11T23:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I’m against the idea of caring about ranking worsts. [/QUOTE] I’d agree when it comes descisions that happened long ago where the decision makers are all long since retired or dead. But when those same decision makers are still in power and trying to get us to vote for them I think its pretty relevant. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/52 "2006-12-12T00:17:24Z")
[QUOTE=griffin1977] The kind of Yugoslavia-style blood bath that would undoubtable resulted (and could still result) would have been exactly what Al Qiada were after. [/quote] Sure looks like it’s \*been \* going on for quite some time _already_. > [@](#): > > We would have replaced a secular totalitarian regime which was no friend of Al Qiada with a Taliban-style regime in the heart of the middle east. [/quote] See any way left to \*avoid \* that anymore? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/53 "2006-12-12T00:58:51Z")
That wasn’t the point i was making. I was responding to Quartz’s original post: > [@Quartz](#): > > No, invading Iraq was not a bad decision. In fact, removing Saddam was one of Bush’s better decisions. The mistake was to stay there afterwards. They idea that the iraq invasion was a good idea and everything would have turned out ok if we’d immediately upped sticks and left is insanity. IMO We are not yet yugoslavia style civil war with pitched armies (including the remenants of the federal army) carving up the country and wholesale slaughter of whole towns. The current low-intensity civil war (yes the current bloodbath is low-intensity scarily enough) is clearly heading that way but it is not there yet. To be honest it may be unavoidable but that doesn’t mean with don’t have a moral (and very practical) obligation to try and stop it. Personally I’m beginning to think the only hope may be some kind of partition solution (if Iraq is going to fall apart anyway we might as well ensure it does so in a vaguely organised way while we have enough troops on hand to avoid a [India/Pakistan](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/south_asia/2002/india_pakistan/timeline/1947.stm) style bloodbath). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/54 "2006-12-12T01:31:38Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It will continue spreading; Not because of American soldiers in Iraq, but because Muslim fanatics have learned that the west fears them and is willing to surrender. (e.g. Danish cartoonists) “Willing to surrender”? This sounds to me like a peculiar way to describe a widespread controversy over the acceptability of some cartoons. I haven’t noticed any instances of Western law enforcement being afraid or unwilling to arrest or accuse Islamist terrorists. All I’ve noticed are some hotly-disputed social and civil-rights arguments about the beliefs and social roles of Muslim minorities in Western societies. I’d hardly call that “surrendering” to “Muslim fanatics”. In fact, quite the reverse: it seems to me to be in Western societies’ best traditions of free debate and concern for individual rights as well as the common good. > [@chappachula](#): > > America is losing its position as global leader for a lot of reasons, and the Iraqi war won’t really change that. I agree that there are a lot of reasons for the decline in American dominance, but I’m not convinced that the Iraq war is, or will turn out to be, negligible among them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/55 "2006-12-12T01:34:18Z")
[QUOTE=griffin1977] Personally I’m beginning to think the only hope may be some kind of partition solution … . [/QUOTE] The problem is that the oil isn’t evenly distributed throughout the country. Most of the production is in the Kurdish north and the Shiite south. So the Sunni middle has a strong incentive to fight tooth and nail to wreck a partition. Add to this Turkey’s violent opposition to an independent Kurdistan, and the fact that an independent Shiite state will probably wind up as an appendage of Iran and a partition looks even worse. At this point I think the BEST we can hope for a brutally repressive strongman to seize power and restore order before the chaos spreads to the entire region. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/56 "2006-12-12T01:54:26Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] The problem is that the oil isn’t evenly distributed throughout the country. Most of the production is in the Kurdish north and the Shiite south. So the Sunni middle has a strong incentive to fight tooth and nail to wreck a partition. Add to this Turkey’s violent opposition to an independent Kurdistan, and the fact that an independent Shiite state will probably wind up as an appendage of Iran and a partition looks even worse. At this point I think the BEST we can hope for a brutally repressive strongman to seize power and restore order before the chaos spreads to the entire region. ☹ [/QUOTE] I agree, but prefer the term “quasi-benevolent strongman”-- it polls better in focus groups. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/57 "2006-12-12T02:09:00Z")
If we’re talking about blunders as far as Iran, what about the overthrow of Mosaddegh in the 1950s, in favor of the Shah? That certainly came around to bite us on the ass, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/58 "2006-12-12T02:19:20Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] At this point I think the BEST we can hope for a brutally repressive strongman to seize power and restore order before the chaos spreads to the entire ragion [/QUOTE] Well, since such an event figures prominently into the myriad of reasons/excuses that were used prior to and afterward for justifications of the invasion, I’m afraid, for the sake of consistency, such an outcome would simply lead you to invade yet again. God luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/59 "2006-12-12T02:21:37Z")
I’m surprised no one has mentioned this one, at least in passing. IMHO, the U.S.'s greatest foreign policy mistake was agreeing to the “spheres of influence” settlement after WWII. The consequences over the 45 or so years that the settlement endured were substantial, and the risks were enormous. Yes, I understand why it happened. Not the question. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573/60 "2006-12-12T03:27:38Z")
Don’t know if this qualifies as “foreign policy” as such - don’t know if it qualifies as a single mistake, or a long history of how neighbors can be pretty ugly towards each other - but surely our policies towards, Native Americans ought to rank somewhere in the list of things we’d like to reconsider? Just got done listening to “Everything You’ve Been Taught Is Wrong”, by James W. Loewen. Sure, he’s doubtless got his own agenda, but he’s also got some interesting points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-invading-iraq-really-the-worst-decision-in-the-history-of-u-s-foreign-policy/383573.md?page=4)