# Was ISIS created by the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064 "2015-12-10T12:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sputnikkk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Sputnikkk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sputnikkk)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/1 "2015-12-10T12:25:18Z")
Was ISIS created by the US, or allowed to rise to power by the US? Is this a conspiracy theory or true? > **[Zerohedge](https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-31/how-us-indirectly-armed-isis-over-2300-humvees)** > > ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero [Truth emerges: The U.S. created ISIS! - NaturalNews.com](http://www.naturalnews.com/052090_ISIS_false-flag_terrorism_US_government.html#) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/2 "2015-12-10T12:32:08Z")
I don’t know the standing of the links you’re offering but it is perfectly mainstream view: The Guardian: [how the US fuelled the rise of Isis in Syria and Iraq](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq) BBC: [What are its origins?](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144) > [@](#): > > IS can trace its roots back to the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian. In 2004, a year after the US-led invasion of Iraq, Zarqawi pledged allegiance to Osama Bin Laden and formed al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), which became a major force in the insurgency. > > After Zarqawi’s death in 2006, AQI created an umbrella organisation, Islamic State in Iraq (ISI). ISI was steadily weakened by the US troop surge and the creation of Sahwa (Awakening) councils by Sunni Arab tribesmen who rejected its brutality. > > Baghdadi, a former US detainee, became leader in 2010 and began rebuilding ISI’s capabilities. By 2013, it was once again carrying out dozens of attacks a month in Iraq. IS was also subsequently armed by the US as the (US’s proxy) Iraqi army deserted its equipment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/3 "2015-12-10T13:00:57Z")
I guess in the sense that UK “created” the IRA, yes. It was a consequence of the US led invasion of Iraq. but that’s not really the same thing as saying the US “created” it, especially as part of some CT. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/4 "2015-12-10T14:07:26Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > IS was also subsequently armed by the US as the (US’s proxy) Iraqi army deserted its equipment. If a burglar breaks into your house and steals a gun you own, in your view, you armed the burglar? ETA: and we had a nearly identical thread just a little while ago: [Did the CIA create ISIS? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=775325) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/5 "2015-12-10T14:45:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If a burglar breaks into your house and steals a gun you own, in your view, you armed the burglar? > > ETA: and we had a nearly identical thread just a little while ago: [Did the CIA create ISIS? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=775325) This is realpolitik in the Middle East. Do save the fireside homesy bogus parallels for a Ronald Reagan Convention. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/6 "2015-12-10T15:13:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess in the sense that UK “created” the IRA, yes. > > It was a consequence of the US led invasion of Iraq. but that’s not really the same thing as saying the US “created” it, especially as part of some CT. Exactly, the question is whether it was an unintended consequence or an intended consequence. I tend to lean toward the latter (while openly admitting that I’m not an expert on the situation by any means) because I think probability favors foolishness over malice. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/7 "2015-12-10T15:27:15Z")
Worth noting that while this sounds like wild CT stuff to most people in the US, the notion that the US created and/or supports ISIS is widely believed in Iraq. > **[Iraqis think the U.S. is in cahoots with the Islamic State, and it is hurting...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iraqis-think-the-us-is-in-cahoots-with-isis-and-it-is-hurting-the-war/2015/12/01/d00968ec-9243-11e5-befa-99ceebcbb272_story.html)** > > The belief, fueled by what appears to be an organized campaign, speaks to the lingering mistrust of America. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/8 "2015-12-10T15:38:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If a burglar breaks into your house and steals a gun you own, in your view, you armed the burglar? I don’t think that analogy is quite fair, since we don’t live in Iraq. It would be a closer parallel if, say, you bought a gun for a friend and that friend’s drunk roommate took it. But to say ISIS was _created_ by the US - with the intent that implies - is silly. A response to US policy in Iraq? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/9 "2015-12-10T15:43:04Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is realpolitik in the Middle East. Do save the fireside homesy bogus parallels for a Ronald Reagan Convention. My 100% Democratic voting record tells me that I’m calling you out on a silly assertion in the folksy way that Bill Clinton would. Your lack of substantive response indicates you don’t have one. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think that analogy is quite fair, since we don’t live in Iraq. It would be a closer parallel if, say, you bought a gun for a friend and that friend’s drunk roommate took it. I’m also leaving out the part that ISIL already had guns before they took all the stuff from Iraqis. It isn’t as if 10,000 ISIL guys carrying nothing but two by fours with a nail in them walked up to the Iraqi army and disarmed them, and that was the first time that ISIL got guns. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/10 "2015-12-10T15:57:43Z")
[There’s already a thread on this.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18864158) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/11 "2015-12-10T16:01:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But to say ISIS was _created_ by the US - with the intent that implies - is silly. A response to US policy in Iraq? Sure. It’s not silly. The US knowingly walked away from a society it had effectively destroyed. If we’re still in the world of cute analogies, the only thing that could possibly happen was a firey backdraft caused by a huge military and political vacuum and fed by rage. The US caused that, it just didn’t care: > [@](#): > > A previous version of ISIS, the Islamic State of Iraq, comprised the core insurgents the Americans fought in those cities during the war. They have regrouped and strengthened across the border in Syria during that country’s bloody conflict – and extended their fight for a home for their brand of hard-line Islamism into Iraq. > > The results have been deadly – not just in Ramadi and Fallujah of course, but across the country, where, just like the “bad old days” of 2005-2009, bombings and killings have become pretty much daily events. [Inside Iraq: Two years after U.S. withdrawal, are things worse than ever?](http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/world/meast/iraq-anbar-violence-holmes/) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/12 "2015-12-10T16:08:48Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Exactly, the question is whether it was an unintended consequence or an intended consequence. I tend to lean toward the latter… because I think probability favors foolishness over malice. Just to avoid confusion, didn’t you mean the _former_? Hey up\_the\_junction, I don’t think anyone would disagree that actions by the US have led to the rise of ISIS. The question is whether we intended to create something like that, in an evil Conspiracy Theory sense, or whether our inept foreign policy led to it without anyone in the US desiring that outcome. So far I haven’t seen anyone arguing explicitly for the former. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/13 "2015-12-10T16:13:01Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It’s not silly. The US knowingly walked away from a society it had effectively destroyed. So, we all agree that we shouldn’t have invaded Iraq. But how long do you think the U.S. should have occupied Iraq? And do you acknowledge that the Iraqi government refused to negotiate a status of forces agreement with the U.S. to continue a large-scale military presence there? Do you think we should have kept tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq that were subject to arrest by Iraqi police for any crimes they were accused of, whether real or imagined? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/14 "2015-12-10T16:15:13Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It’s not silly. The US knowingly walked away from a society it had effectively destroyed. If we’re still in the world of cute analogies, the only thing that could possibly happen was a firey backdraft caused by a huge military and political vacuum and fed by rage. Or the Iraqis could have gotten their shit together and set up a stable democratic government. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. Anyway, the US didn’t “walk away.” The US withdrew its military forces, which is rather different. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/15 "2015-12-10T16:32:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Or the Iraqis could have gotten their shit together and set up a stable democratic government. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No. Anyway, the US didn’t “walk away.” The US withdrew its military forces, which is rather different. :rolleyes: You are smarter then that, The US destroyed the whole infrastructure of the state and then said “tsk tsk” when the shit hit the fan. Its like blowing up a dam and then being surprised at the flood damage. [QUOTE= Fotheringay-Phipps ] Worth noting that while this sounds like wild CT stuff to most people in the US, the notion that the US created and/or supports ISIS is widely believed in Iraq. [/QUOTE] The US has armed some very dangerous and secretraian groups, so its not CT to suspect that they created ISIS. Not that they did, but from the Iraqi perspective, no unbelieabke. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/16 "2015-12-10T16:49:55Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > You are smarter then that, The US destroyed the whole infrastructure of the state and then said “tsk tsk” when the shit hit the fan. > > Its like blowing up a dam and then being surprised at the flood damage. I don’t think we were surprised. But this result was not _inevitable_. It wasn’t so much blowing up a dam as not bothering to repair it for 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/17 "2015-12-10T17:11:47Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Exactly, the question is whether it was an unintended consequence or an intended consequence. I tend to lean toward the latter (while openly admitting that I’m not an expert on the situation by any means) because I think probability favors foolishness over malice. I think you mean “former”, not “latter”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/18 "2015-12-10T17:12:00Z")
If any country deserves the blame for creating ISIS it’s Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. They funneled money into the groups because they wanted Sunni insurgent groups as a counterweight to the Shiite insurgent groups backed by Iran. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/19 "2015-12-10T17:12:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think we were surprised. But this result was not _inevitable_. It wasn’t so much blowing up a dam as not bothering to repair it for 20 years. No, the US blew it up - it cost $2 trillion and half a million dead civilians. That isn’t “neglect”. And walked away, creating the vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064/20 "2015-12-10T17:20:12Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, the US blew it up - it cost $2 trillion and half a million dead civilians. That isn’t “neglect”. And walked away, creating the vacuum. I presume you fully support the USA backing dictators in other countries? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-isis-created-by-the-us/740064.md?page=2)