# Was it a False Flag attack by a couple of IRS employes to lead to mainstream Tax Revolt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850 "2013-06-01T10:16:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/181 "2013-06-05T16:53:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What? No. It doesn’t have to be a government employee, and government employees make mistakes all the time that aren’t scandals. -human Action. > > So if I don’t see the IRS employee’s mistake as a scandal why did you tell me that “Yep, this is a scandal”. > > It is a trumped up scandal by people like O’Reilly who are lying about the mistake. > > If all government employees mistakes are not scandals then there is no reason this event is a scandal, unless people like you and Mace decide that it is. You have decided it is and I don’t get what your criteria for that decision is. > > Could you expand in that? Specifically targeting certain groups is not a “mistake”. You should really get a dictionary as you seem to be confused by some very common words. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/182 "2013-06-05T17:09:21Z")
Yeah, they came up with those criteria totally by mistake. Just a coincidence that they didn’t target words like “Earth”, “Progressive”, or “Equality”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/183 "2013-06-05T21:31:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …And the American people think it’s a scandal:…but once again you’ve been fooled by your own political biases, Thank Heavens you were here, NonPartisan Man! But your quote doesn’t quite directly support your contention. People want an investigation. So do I, with every confidence that this will turn out to be much ado about not much at all. After all, it is possible, is it not, that such a free and thorough investigation will find that this is little more than a bureaucratic fuck up? The laws and regulations here are murky enough to support that, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/184 "2013-06-05T21:35:35Z")
“So if I don’t see the IRS employee’s mistake as a scandal why did you tell me that “Yep, this is a scandal”.” Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW “Because I don’t modify my opinions or reading of facts based on what you believe. Whether you see this as a scandal or not is wholly disconnected from whether I do.” -Human Action But because you have stated that some government employee mistakes are not scandals and some mistakes are scandals what was the purpose to tell me that this one is a scandal and not a mistake. You were agreeing with Mace to point out that I am wrong. How can I be wrong if as you say all government mistakes are not scandals? You are getting to my point also that it must be forces and decisions outside the mistake or error in judgement that turn a mistake into a scandal. I am outside and you are outside but you and Mace have jumped to the conclusion that this event is properly labeled and now exists as a scandal. John Mace stated this, The IRS has admitted to wrong-doing, so this is a scandal." Then you agreed with Mace. So how can Mace be correct if as you say all government employees who do something wrong or make a mistake are not necessarily involved in a scandal? Do you have a chart of some sort that helps you decide which mistakes are scandals and which mistakes are not? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/185 "2013-06-05T21:38:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, they came up with those criteria totally by mistake. Just a coincidence that they didn’t target words like “Earth”, “Progressive”, or “Equality”. And perhaps if there had been a Progressive Earth Equality Party movement in 2009 which was aligned with a certain political caucus, and hundreds of groups using it in their names suddenly started applying for tax exemptions, they would have. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/186 "2013-06-05T22:20:40Z")
As a side note there is a bigger mistake than the one being focused on, and that is that these political groups were approved for tax free status as social welfare groups in the first. One only need to read the law as written to know that most of these Tea Party Groups are not in compliance with the actual legal language. Why is there no clambering for an investigation into that mistake? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/187 "2013-06-05T22:23:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Thank Heavens you were here, NonPartisan Man! > > But your quote doesn’t quite directly support your contention. People want an investigation. So do I, with every confidence that this will turn out to be much ado about not much at all. > > After all, it is possible, is it not, that such a free and thorough investigation will find that this is little more than a bureaucratic fuck up? The laws and regulations here are murky enough to support that, don’t you think? The investigation is for any crimes committed. The scandal is already here, with even Democrats calling for people to be be fired. There can be a scandal without a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/188 "2013-06-05T23:00:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But because you have stated that some government employee mistakes are not scandals and some mistakes are scandals what was the purpose to tell me that this one is a scandal and not a mistake. It can be both, you realize. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You were agreeing with Mace to point out that I am wrong. > How can I be wrong if as you say all government mistakes are not scandals? > > You are getting to my point also that it must be forces and decisions outside the mistake or error in judgement that turn a mistake into a scandal. “Scandal” is a subjective term, yes, but not a meaningless one. I’m sure you can think of ‘mistakes’ by government agents that you’d call scandals, and others that you would not. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am outside and you are outside but you and Mace have jumped to the conclusion that this event is properly labeled and now exists as a scandal. Obama’s not outside, nor is the IRS or the Senate, and they seem to feel that it’s a scandal. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > John Mace stated this, The IRS has admitted to wrong-doing, so this is a scandal." > > Then you agreed with Mace. > > So how can Mace be correct if as you say all government employees who do something wrong or make a mistake are not necessarily involved in a scandal? I agree with his judgment. And Obama’s. And the IRS’. And the American people’s. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you have a chart of some sort that helps you decide which mistakes are scandals and which mistakes are not? Are you suggesting that nothing can be a scandal unless it meets some objective criteria? What might those be? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/189 "2013-06-05T23:13:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And perhaps if there had been a Progressive Earth Equality Party movement in 2009 which was aligned with a certain political caucus, and hundreds of groups using it in their names suddenly started applying for tax exemptions, they would have. Problem is, the argument that the IRS was overworked proved to be a lie made up by them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/190 "2013-06-05T23:21:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The investigation is for any crimes committed. The scandal is already here, with even Democrats calling for people to be be fired. There can be a scandal without a crime. So we are now punishing people based upon popular opinion but in a fair-minded and bi-partisan way. I see. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/191 "2013-06-05T23:33:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So we are now punishing people based upon popular opinion but in a fair-minded and bi-partisan way. I see. No. Please stop making up things that I never said. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/192 "2013-06-05T23:44:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So we are now punishing people based upon popular opinion but in a fair-minded and bi-partisan way. I see. Personally I don’t think anyone should go to prison. But some people will have to be fired, probably Paz and Singer, although an investigation could exonerate them. Problem is, the executive branch investigating itself isn’t likely to be considered the final say. Thus the need for an independent prosecutor. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/193 "2013-06-05T23:46:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I agree with his judgment. And Obama’s. And the IRS’. And the American people’s. That’s a leap. Now Obama and the IRS all agree with John Mace and Human Action that a couple employees found to have done something wrong makes it a scandal. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/194 "2013-06-06T00:23:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That’s a leap. Now Obama and the IRS all agree with John Mace and Human Action that a couple employees found to have done something wrong makes it a scandal. You are fixated on that word beyond all reason, as if denying that it’s a scandal will magically make it go away, or amount to nothing. Note that the people who have something at stake, like the President and the IRS, aren’t being so flip and dismissive. At this point, _even if no wrong-doing by anyone is found_, and what’s come out to date turns out to be false, history will record this as the 2013 IRS scandal, because whether it’s a scandal is determined by how it’s reacted to as much as the actual content. Those right-wing stalwarts at [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/15/politics/irs-conservative-targeting) and the [Huffington Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/13/obama-irs-scandal_n_3266577.html) are using the dreaded s-word. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/195 "2013-06-06T00:34:10Z")
And again, it’s very unlikely that employees took it upon themselves to do this. Those employees are pushing back hard against that accusation. In the very first Congressional hearing, Steven Miller, the resigned IRS commissioner, said that he knew he name of the person who ordered the targeting. Eh, except that he had forgotten it by the time he got to the hearing. So the government knows who is directly responsible, it’s just a matter of getting them to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/196 "2013-06-06T00:56:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You are fixated on that word beyond all reason, as if denying that it’s a scandal will magically make it go away, or amount to nothing. I am fixated on so many’s acceptance of the ability of political opposition to lie something into becoming a scandal. I am not denying that hate-filled politically desperate\* right wingers have succeeded in turning a mistake into a scandal of such enormous magnitude that a GOP US Senator was on national radio show yesterday listening to tapes of Tea Partiers referring to the IRS as “the government’s jack-booted thugs” because they asked some questions that offended them when they applied for ‘tax free status’ to wage political hatred and call it social do-gooder work to benefit all and save America from the statist socialist destroyer of freedom. Did that Lawmaker push back on 'the jack-booted thug" comment? No. A House GOP Rep goes on national tv and declares, not suspects, that the White House produced an enemies list equal to the one Nixon made. Is a lie like that a mistake, but not a scandal? That’s my point. And why would anyone agree that we must accept O’Reilly’s lies, and Sen Ted Cruz’s absolute disrespect for some Americans just because they work for the IRS, allowing crazy talk to go un-contested? Why can a House GOP leader lie. And what I get from you and Mace is that, well what is, is what it is. They want to create a scandal out of a mistake that the IRS self-corrected, and then lie about the mistake and spread all kinds of theories about enemies lists and visits to the White House and it is the objective or fair minded folks to sit back and not worry about it. America in the hands of these hate-filled loons is gonna be alright. \*good economic news, ObamaCare actually working, The huge halving of the $trillion dollar budget deficit that Bush left on Obama’s doorstep on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/197 "2013-06-06T01:10:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The scandal is already here, with even Democrats calling for people to be be fired. Does this mean you agree with Democrats who call for people to be fired or do you agree with me that nobody, including Democrats should be calling for people to be fired since all the facts are not in. And secondly, I supposed you won’t comment on my observation that the IRS has obviously violated an IRS law when it changed the wording from ‘exclusively’ to ‘primarily’ and approves tax free status to groups that do not even ‘primarily’ do social welfare work of a non-political nature. The law was broken when Karl Rove’s tax free status was granted. Was it a mistake? And do we have to wait for the IRS to admit that approving Karl Rove tax free status to do social welfare work was a violation of the law for you to get excited about it? Why the double standard? One mistake is a scandal… Another potentially bigger mistake by the same IRS is nothing to get excited about. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/198 "2013-06-06T01:11:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am fixated on so many’s acceptance of the ability of political opposition to lie something into becoming a scandal. > > I am not denying that hate-filled politically desperate\* right wingers have succeeded in turning a mistake into a scandal of such enormous magnitude that a GOP US Senator was on national radio show yesterday listening to tapes of Tea Partiers referring to the IRS as “the government’s jack-booted thugs” because they asked some questions that offended them when they applied for ‘tax free status’ to wage political hatred and call it social do-gooder work to benefit all and save America from the statist socialist destroyer of freedom. > > Did that Lawmaker push back on 'the jack-booted thug" comment? No. > > A House GOP Rep goes on national tv and declares, not suspects, that the White House produced an enemies list equal to the one Nixon made. Is a lie like that a mistake, but not a scandal? > > That’s my point. > > And why would anyone agree that we must accept O’Reilly’s lies, and Sen Ted Cruz’s absolute disrespect for some Americans just because they work for the IRS, allowing crazy talk to go un-contested? Why can a House GOP leader lie. > > And what I get from you and Mace is that, well what is, is what it is. They want to create a scandal out of a mistake that the IRS self-corrected, and then lie about the mistake and spread all kinds of theories about enemies lists and visits to the White House and it is the objective or fair minded folks to sit back and not worry about it. > > America in the hands of these hate-filled loons is gonna be alright. > \*good economic news, ObamaCare actually working, The huge halving of the $trillion dollar budget deficit that Bush left on Obama’s doorstep on the way out. If I’ve distilled this down to its essence, you’re upset that there isn’t more active opposition to efforts to make political hay out of this scandal through exaggeration, speculation, and deception, correct? If that’s correct, please note that a) your counter-efforts to minimize this scandal into nothingness are an equal an opposite response to O’Reilly et al’s efforts, in that both are distortions, and b) what do you imagine should happen? Senators being shouted down on the Senate floor? Bill O’Reilly being fired? We’re talking about comments made in closed fora: TV shows, speeches, and radio shows. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/199 "2013-06-06T01:26:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > a) your counter-efforts to minimize this scandal into nothingness are an equal an opposite response to O’Reilly et al’s efforts, in that both are distortions, I believe you just called me an equal to the liar that Bill O’Reilly has done and specifically LIE about how many visits the Bush appointed IRS Commissioner at the time the mistakes took place visited the White House. If I misread your statement, then I apologize, but if you think I have lied equal to that one lie by Bill O’Reilly, please do tell me what it is? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/200 "2013-06-06T01:31:03Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I believe you just called me an equal to the liar that Bill O’Reilly has done and specifically LIE about how many visits the Bush appointed IRS Commissioner at the time the mistakes took place visited the White House. > > If I misread your statement, then I apologize, but if you think I have lied equal to that one lie by Bill O’Reilly, please do tell me what it is? Your _response_ is equal and opposite to those whom you are criticizing. They are bending the truth to make this scandal seem worse than it is, you are bending the truth to make it seem less important than it is. They are manufacturing conspiracy theories, so did you in your OP. If you want me to say that O’Reilly is a worse journalist than you, well, he probably is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850.md?page=11)