# Was it a False Flag attack by a couple of IRS employes to lead to mainstream Tax Revolt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850 "2013-06-01T10:16:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/61 "2013-06-02T16:53:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It was a direct response to the line I quoted before it. You made a point of claiming that the Right has effectively created an erroneous belief based on a CT. That has no bearing on this discussion unless you are offering up your own CT as a counter to it. Where do you get that it has no bearing to my OP question? That 33 percent will be the core of a tax revolt if that is where the scandal mongering is headed. And where does your last statement have credibility of logic to reach the conclusion you reached. I know of no formula or debate principle that would allow you to go where you went. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/62 "2013-06-02T17:22:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Where do you get that it has no bearing to my OP question? That 33 percent will be the core of a tax revolt if that is where the scandal mongering is headed. So what? You “asked” whether the IRS event could be a false flag operation. The number of people who would choose to believe the story does not affect whether the actions actually happened the way that you “asked.” It is irrelevant. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And where does your last statement have credibility of logic to reach the conclusion you reached. I know of no formula or debate principle that would allow you to go where you went. On the contrary. You are “just asking questions.” Following in your mentor Beck’s tradition, it is clear that you want others to believe that it was a false flag operation. It follows from that that, since the false flag operation has not one scintilla of evidence to support it, it is clearly a CT. Given that it is a CT that you are proposing, one would presume that you had a purpose in mind that you hoped to achieve. I simply “asked the question” as to whether fooling a different sector of the public was your actual intention. You do not have a problem with me asking a question, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/63 "2013-06-02T17:50:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I will not rest until the Dope has a “Silly Speculations” forum. It already does - your computer is blocking it. I assume. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/64 "2013-06-02T18:28:58Z")
Want to know what I think? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/65 "2013-06-02T18:31:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So what? You “asked” whether the IRS event could be a false flag operation. The number of people who would choose to believe the story does not affect whether the actions actually happened the way that you “asked.” It is irrelevant. > > On the contrary. You are “just asking questions.” Following in your mentor Beck’s tradition, it is clear that you want others to believe that it was a false flag operation. It follows from that that, since the false flag operation has not one scintilla of evidence to support it, it is clearly a CT. Given that it is a CT that you are proposing, one would presume that you had a purpose in mind that you hoped to achieve. I simply “asked the question” as to whether fooling a different sector of the public was your actual intention. You do not have a problem with me asking a question, do you? The question I asked is legit and you have not deligitimized it by posing your ‘if’ scenario. So now it is personal attack on the writer by accusing him of having Glenn Beck as a mentor. I see oeiginal questions are not welcome here. Is it impossible that a couple if IRS employees have a right wing agenda. Mark Levin and his Landmark Legal foundation were long ago on this case. He has it justifying eliminating Obama Care because he claims the IRS is now in charge of America’s health care. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/66 "2013-06-02T18:37:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Want to know what I think? Something about how this will ensure Republican presidencies for the next forty years? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/67 "2013-06-02T18:40:08Z")
That’s no proof of conspiracy. If the President is playing basketball and trips, Mark Levin will use THAT to justify eliminating Obama Care. It doesn’t mean that Mark Levin paid another player to foul him. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/68 "2013-06-02T19:41:30Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The question I asked is legit and you have not deligitimized it by posing your ‘if’ scenario. And you have utterly failed to present a serious reasonm for anyone to believe the answer is anything other than a resounding , “Of course, not.” > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So now it is personal attack on the writer by accusing him of having Glenn Beck as a mentor. It is not a personal attack. Your OP is exactly the sort of thing that Glenn Beck would say. I have merely pointed out the similarities. If you had a different mentor to behave in the manner of Glenn Beck, point him out. (It will not change the fact that you are using Beck-like tactics, but I will refrain from thinking you learned them from him.) > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I see oeiginal questions are not welcome here. You have still failed to post one, so I am not sure how you “see” that. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Is it impossible that a couple if IRS employees have a right wing agenda. Hardly impossible. It is extremely unlikely, however, that they would employ the tactics of which they are accused in the service of the political Right. If this came from the Right, why have the IRS employees’ superiors not outed them? If this came from the Right, why was it not splashed all over Fox News between June and November, last year? Romney could certainly have used the help–and given the beating Romney took for failing to release his tax returns and being accused of paying only 14% income tax, anything to direct the voting populace to link the IRS and bad governance to Obama would have been seen as a desired result. Like most CTs, this requires the application by brilliant idiots or truly stupid geniuses. It requires that either the Right wing “infiltrated” the IRS or that a few IRS workers were bribed to harass Right wing groups in a way that would embarrass the administration. Then, the people who orchestrated that action had to simply sit on their butts for six months prior to an election and then continue to sit back and fail to publicize it until six months after an election in which they could have really used that scandal to help their cause. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Mark Levin and his Landmark Legal foundation were long ago on this case. > > He has it justifying eliminating Obama Care because he claims the IRS is now in charge of America’s health care. So one more Right wing zealot (who already hates both the IRS and Obama) is playing up this situation. Until you provide something more that a Beckian JAQ, you are simply promoting one more CT. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/69 "2013-06-02T21:18:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You have still failed to post one, so I am not sure how you “see” that. Awww come on Tom, stop harshing his mellow. He’s obviously a Free Thinker that we could all learn from. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Like most CTs, this requires the application by brilliant idiots or truly stupid geniuses. I’m reasonably certain that a rakish, handsome devil first described that trait on the Dope as “genius fools”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/70 "2013-06-02T23:00:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Since you have expressed sympathy with the IRS Abuse of Power CT No, I have expressed no opinion on the matter. I only stated what the polls show. Can you please answer this question: > [@John Mace](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by \*\*NotfooledbyW \*\* > > The OP believes what happened was a mistake caused by lack of clarity on the rules compounded by the Citizen’s United Case that produced a huge influx of political groups such as Karl Rove’s getting tax free status to use for politicsl campaigns. > > So, just to be clear, you do not think this was a “False Flag attack by a couple of IRS employees to lead to mainstream Tax Revolt”? Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/71 "2013-06-02T23:42:56Z")
If T&D does not approve of an original question it necessarily must be asked by one who is mentored by Glenn Beck. Now that has all the markings of a conspiracy theory - Glenn Beck had mind control over so many except T&D. And to think I never listened to or watched Glenn Beck and he has become my mentor. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/72 "2013-06-03T00:12:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I have expressed no opinion on the matter. I only stated what the polls show. > > Can you please answer this question: I have answered the question twice now. I told you what I believe and now you say you have no opinion on the matter. Why opine at all then. Right Wing myths work well when people ride the fence on matters such as this. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/73 "2013-06-03T00:21:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If T&D does not approve of an original question it necessarily must be asked by one who is mentored by Glenn Beck. > > Now that has all the markings of a conspiracy theory - Glenn Beck had mind control over so many except T&D. > > And to think I never listened to or watched Glenn Beck and he has become my mentor. Nothing about your question is “original.” Nothing. It is one more in a long line of disingenuous opening questions asked for the purpose of directing a discussion toward a Conspiracy Theory. Now, I suppose that it is possible that you came up with your own CT all by yourself. However, I would have thought that you would be familiar with Beck, (although I doubt that you would agree with him), and I figured that pointing out the similarities between his style and your opening, you might consider how that affects the reception of your OP. In the future, I will not attempt to engage your posts with anything so subtle. = = = So, do you have ANY reason (beyond a deep rooted desire to find a conspiracy) to think that there is any evidence to support the question asked in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/74 "2013-06-03T01:07:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You posed a Left wing Conspiracy Theory … > [@](#): > > Could the targeting of Tea Party groups for IRS harassment have been a means to incite the mainstream anti-government and anti-ObamaCare Republicans to justify civil disobedience and rebellion against paying Federal Income taxes … > > And thus bring the government and Obama down… in the only way a third of the population could do it? Look at the full quote and include the last dozen words. .“. in the only way a third of the population could do it?” I did not seek to create a Conspiracy Theory - that is your fantasy. I would expect evidence that the whole thing was started by Tea Party sympathizers but there is nothing wrong with making sure that all bases are covered with all the investigations going on. So you are wrong about the CT crap. You jumped the gun to make a personal attack based upon your whimsical inclination to label something a CT before requesting more information about the writers intent. You were cop, prosecutor, jury, judge and executioner all in one. No one can question your authority. When an accused witch denied she was a witch that was proof that she was a witch. Can you end the witch hunt? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/75 "2013-06-03T01:30:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, do you have ANY reason (beyond a deep rooted desire to find a conspiracy) to think that there is any evidence to support the question asked in the OP? I already explained my view on ‘evidence’ required to ask a question such as the one I posed here. Reason or basis is something else. I expressed it in the opening post, There is as I see it only one way that a third of this country’s population can bring Obamacare and Obama down. And that is a right winger Tea Bagger driven tax revolt that could be incited by the likes of a Glenn Beck or Mark Levin. Emphasis again on ‘could be’ . All it would take is for some Tea Party second amendment rights, anti-tax, Obama hating buffoon to rile enough right wingers up with some kind of stand-off with Federal Authorities - and establishment Republicans could lose control of all this IRS ‘abuse of power’ hysteria they are currently promoting, Asking folks to think about it is not silly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/76 "2013-06-03T01:34:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I have answered the question twice now. > > I told you what I believe and now you say you have no opinion on the matter. > > Why opine at all then. > > Right Wing myths work well when people ride the fence on matters such as this. I’m not on the fence. I said I had not expressed an opinion. I didn’t say I didn’t have one. You claimed I expressed sympathy with the “abuse” claim. That is false. I have expressed my opinion on your OP. Like everyone else in this thread, I think it’s bunk. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/77 "2013-06-03T01:45:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not on the fence. I said I had not expressed an opinion. I didn’t say I didn’t have one. You claimed I expressed sympathy with the “abuse” claim. That is false. > > I have expressed my opinion on your OP. Like everyone else in this thread, I think it’s bunk. That’s a highly evolved response. So do you agree that this Tea Party flap was the IRS abusing its power or was it mistake induced by a lack of clarity about the rules, Why won’t you state what you think about the alleged scandal? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/78 "2013-06-03T02:00:42Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Look at the full quote and include the last dozen words. > > .“. in the only way a third of the population could do it?” It is only your limited imagination that thinks that this could be “the only way.” > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I did not seek to create a Conspiracy Theory - that is your fantasy. > > I would expect evidence that the whole thing was started by Tea Party sympathizers but there is nothing wrong with making sure that all bases are covered with all the investigations going on. > > So you are wrong about the CT crap. No. It is a classic CT, supported by more JAQing off. This is a situation where the facts should definitely precede the “question.” There is no point to asking a bunch of people on the internet such a question except to get them thinking that the suggestion might be true. Since NOTHING has been presented by anyone (administration, IRS management, News Media, pundits, or you) that would support such a line of thought, its only purpose is to prepare people to believe that it just might have happened. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You jumped the gun to make a personal attack based upon your whimsical inclination to label something a CT before requesting more information about the writers intent. > > You were cop, prosecutor, jury, judge and executioner all in one. > > No one can question your authority. > > When an accused witch denied she was a witch that was proof that she was a witch. > > Can you end the witch hunt? I have made no personal attack. I have noted that you posted a classic CT supported by the typical method of JAQing. Since you have posted a classic CT, offering nothing more than JAQ support, I have done nothing wrong. You placed this silliness in Great Debates. I have steadfastly debated the topic on two levels. While it is true that one level was an attempt to get you to realize how silly your CT sounded, on another level, I have actually addressed the “question” you raised–while you have resolutely ignored my responses except to try to distract the discussion by making a big deal about your CT while dodging my substantive points. Anyone may question my authority. I notice, however, that no one posting to this thread besides you has felt the need to do so. Not every poster to this thread is a part of my (small and dwindling) fan club, yet no one has pointed out the flaws that you seem to believe are in my posts. I am not engaged in a witch hunt. I have no list of persons who have anti-CT sympathies (in or out of the State Department). ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/79 "2013-06-03T02:21:15Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Look at the full quote and include the last dozen words. > > .“. in the only way a third of the population could do it?” > > I did not seek to create a Conspiracy Theory - that is your fantasy. > > I would expect evidence that the whole thing was started by Tea Party sympathizers but there is nothing wrong with making sure that all bases are covered with all the investigations going on. > > So you are wrong about the CT crap. > > You jumped the gun to make a personal attack based upon your whimsical inclination to label something a CT before requesting more information about the writers intent. > > You were cop, prosecutor, jury, judge and executioner all in one. > > No one can question your authority. > > When an accused witch denied she was a witch that was proof that she was a witch. > > Can you end the witch hunt? “Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I’m being repressed!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850/80 "2013-06-03T02:59:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Speaking as one of the token right-wingers hereabouts > [list=A][li]You have no idea what you are talking about[/li][li]There is no possibility that this is a false-flag operation[/li][li]There isn’t going to be any large-scale withholding of taxes[/li][li]And you have no idea what you are talking about in the first place.[/list]Apart from that - well, there is no “apart from that”. Go ahead and make things up and accuse other people of them - it helps to tell who need not be taken seriously.[/li] > Regards, > Shodan As one of the left-wingers here, this. There is such a thing as a stupid question, and this is one of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-a-false-flag-attack-by-a-couple-of-irs-employes-to-lead-to-mainstream-tax-revolt/659850.md?page=5)