# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/221 "2013-01-24T16:26:40Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Also, it looks like you don’t have a good handle on atheism vs agnosticism, yet. Well…I suppose that an atheist denies God exists while agnostics are undecided. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/222 "2013-01-24T16:31:45Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well…I suppose that an atheist denies God exists while agnostics are undecided. You’re still having a problem with the definitions, I see. Atheists don’t believe a God exists. While that’s technically the same as “denying” God exists, the connotation is different (non-belief vs rejection). Atheists don’t reject God, they just put God in the same category as Santa Claus, Batman, or Winnie the Pooh. Agnostics aren’t undecided. They simply believe there is no evidence for it either way. That’s still a decision, even if it’s a decision you don’t comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/223 "2013-01-24T16:36:32Z")
This is not a worthwhile tangent as far as I’m concerned. Atheists and agnostics don’t always agree on what their own descriptions mean and it’s not reasonable to criticize **pchaos** for not being up to date on that. What matters, I think, is that he’s having trouble with the idea that atheists don’t believe in any gods. They’re not rejecting the idea or denying it because it’s offensive- most of them just don’t think the concept makes any sense and they don’t see any evidence for it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/224 "2013-01-24T16:36:54Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well…I suppose that an atheist denies God exists while agnostics are undecided. An atheist has seen no evidence(NOTE: not proof, but evidence) that would lead to even the possibility that a god exists. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/225 "2013-01-24T16:44:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Let me try a metaphor. > > Okay, let’s say we are the sand dune and God is the outside observer. > > Now since we are just grains of sand blowing to who knows where…also we don’t know beans about the universe because of our virtually non-existent minds…everything appears random. > > God is outside that system and says everything is forming a pretty pattern, it’s all going according to plan. Not everything is a metaphor. The sand dune example is a real world situation wherein order arises spontaneously. If random things can only lead to random things, this should not happen. Therefore, the notion that randomness can only beget randomness is false. Therefore the notion that our minds could not have ordered thoughts in a universe with an undirected origin, is false. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/226 "2013-01-24T16:44:58Z")
Let’s address in reverse order: > [@For You](#): > > Are you sure that is the law you mean? Or are you referring to the Law of Conservation? And, “… believe …”? What are you doing bringing belief into a thread about god/not-god? Jeeezus. Get out of here with your pissy little quibbles. (1) When one is not a specialist in a subject he is discussing then he may be permitted to qualify his remarks with such phrases as “I believe.” (2) Any discussion of religion necessarity involves interjection of belief, as opposed to experminental confirmation. (from Wiki): > [@](#): > > First Law of Thermodynamics: The increase in internal energy of a closed system is equal to the difference of the heat supplied to the system and the work done by it: ΔU = Q - W > [@For You](#): > > Are you sure that is the law you mean? Or are you referring to the Law of Conservation? Conservation of energy and conservation of matter are equivalent. See e=mc^2 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/227 "2013-01-24T16:55:37Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Jeeezus. Get out of here with your pissy little quibbles. Keep this kind of commentary in the Pit, please. And you (and **For You** and **GIGOBuster** ) should take this discussion to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/228 "2013-01-24T17:04:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What matters, I think, is that he’s having trouble with the idea that atheists don’t believe in any gods. Agreed that it’s probably not an important distinction, though getting atheism straight seems to be important for any fruitful discussion with **pchaos**. It’s a concept it took me years to get straight. Atheists don’t reject or hate God any more than they reject Santa or Batman or Winnie the Pooh. Some do actually hate organized religion, but that’s different from hating God. It’s like hating Disney for making Winnie the Pooh movies. You don’t hate Winnie the Pooh (just a fictional character). You hate the company that owns the property. **pchaos** , bringing this back to the original topic, it’s an important distinction because your implicit assumption is that atheists (everybody, actually) believe in _something_ and that’s inconsistent with your notion of a random universe. Another assumption is that order is fundamentally proof of some higher power, which has already been shown to be untrue. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/229 "2013-01-24T17:13:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The evidence here shows who is really not paying attention, he may had been related to physics, but that is not his current profession… I guess since i am being accused of material misrepresentation I should reply, and your “may have been related to physics” is itself a misrepresentation. From Albert’s Wiki bio (emphasis added): "He received his **B.S. in physics** from Columbia College (1976) and his **doctorate in theoretical physics** from The Rockefeller University (1981) under Professor Nicola Khuri. Afterwards he worked with Professor Yakir Aharonov of Tel Aviv University. Albert **has published two books (Quantum Mechanics and Experience (1992) and Time and Chance (2000) ) and numerous articles on quantum mechanics**. His books are both praised and criticized for their informal, conversational style, but he is routinely credited by both fan and critic as having a talent for communicating difficult, highly abstract concepts in ways that are accessible to the lay science reader." So he is uniquely qulified to discuss the current, modern, ongoing interplay of science and philosophy, having been fully educated as a scientist. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > In the end the reviewer is not using physics to refute Krauss. You have not read or not understood the article. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/230 "2013-01-24T18:08:52Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I know the Intelligent Being (God) always existed intuitively. > > If He did not exist, then we are more intelligent than the Intelligent Being or process that created us. > > Now that is possible…but highly unlikely. Thus the Intelligent Being always existed. :rolleyes: Easier to ignore than to debate someone who argues for a position with zero empirical evidence and who will not accept evidence to the contrary. Enjoy the delusion… ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/231 "2013-01-24T18:10:33Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > God speaks for Himself, through the Bible, miracles, and by answering prayers. And who allows for plague, murder, rape and other horrific crimes upon the innocent. I feel sorry for people under such a delusion in the face of reality. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/232 "2013-01-24T19:16:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How do you decide something isn’t real because you’re mad at it? It happens all the time, like when we’re young and think that are parents don’t understand us. So we take a year off from school and wander around in Europe trying to find ourselves. It happens when we decide on the weight we give empirical evidence. To some our right hand is evidence of the genius of God. To others, what did God have to do with this? It doesn’t look that much different than the hand a monkey has. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/233 "2013-01-24T19:17:36Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > I guess since i am being accused of material misrepresentation I should reply, > and your “may have been related to physics” is itself a misrepresentation. > > From Albert’s Wiki bio (emphasis added): > > "He received his **B.S. in physics** from Columbia College (1976) and his **doctorate in theoretical physics** from The Rockefeller University (1981) under Professor Nicola Khuri. Afterwards he worked with Professor Yakir Aharonov of Tel Aviv University. > > Albert **has published two books (Quantum Mechanics and Experience (1992) and Time and Chance (2000) ) and numerous articles on quantum mechanics**. His books are both praised and criticized for their informal, conversational style, but he is routinely credited by both fan and critic as having a talent for communicating difficult, highly abstract concepts in ways that are accessible to the lay science reader." > > So he is uniquely qulified to discuss the current, modern, ongoing interplay > of science and philosophy, having been fully educated as a scientist. Sorry, but I have seen this before, that is not impressive, I have seen people who were experts on a field that they left after several years to pontificate on the current state of affairs on a subject like Tobacco smoke regarding cancer or computer models regarding climate change. In the most notorious cases they get it wrong, and it is not because they are not knowledgeable, but because they are not aware of how the new research is doing and the new tools they use. And it usually happens that the expert has moved on and in this case he is now a Philosophy professor, with plenty of experience yes, but his focus is not on doing current cosmology, but defending his philosophical turf. > [@colonial](#): > > You have not read or not understood the article. Sorry, I did early, I have to agree with Krauss (that has oodles of recognition from other physicists and cosmologists) The book reviewer is not really using science but philosophy to counter this. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/234 "2013-01-24T19:18:53Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > It happens all the time, like when we’re young and think that are parents don’t understand us. So we take a year off from school and wander around in Europe trying to find ourselves. There’s a logical disconnect here. I’m pretty sure angry teenagers finding themselves in Europe still believe their parents are real, no matter how angry they are at their parents. How is this supposed to be an example? ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/235 "2013-01-24T19:20:11Z")
OK, I’m sorry, I need to back up a couple pages to this statement by **pchaos** \*\* > [@](#): > > It is difficult to believe that we evolved from pure randomness. It’s much easier to believe that our Creator had some foresight. \*\* Why?? It’s not more difficult for me to believe, in fact I think this is the ultimate miracle. I DO believe that all this just happened, in infinitesimal steps, over a span of time greater than man’s measly mind can comprehend. The supposition that some amorphous power waved his hands and said Abracadabra, and then _poof_ here’s the world, is silly. The further belief that some unseen power gives a rat’s behind about any human-made endeavor is something utterly foreign to me. I see it as a crutch, or a better yet a security blanket; something to cling to when the big bad world gets scary and you want to take to your bed and hide. And on the marriage thing - I am atheist, I am married, and I was married by a priest. That was to appease my soon-to-be MIL, who was a devout Catholic. I am perfectly capable taking part in a theatrical presentation to make others happy. I said my script, the audience clapped, and all’s well. Personally _I_ would have been happy with a JP, but there are other people in this world besides myself, and this seemed to be a small sacrifice. I DO NOT believe in god, so I don’t believe that my marriage has been blessed by anything other than human love (and a shitload of damned hard work). We’ve been together for 30+ years, and married for 21. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/236 "2013-01-24T19:25:11Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > It happens all the time, like when we’re young and think that are parents don’t understand us. So we take a year off from school and wander around in Europe trying to find ourselves. …What? Are you saying “my parents don’t understand me” is similar to “my parents don’t exist?” > [@](#): > > It happens when we decide on the weight we give empirical evidence. To some our right hand is evidence of the genius of God. To others, what did God have to do with this? It doesn’t look that much different than the hand a monkey has. I have no idea what you’re saying here. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/237 "2013-01-24T19:31:52Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > It happens all the time, like when we’re young and think that are parents don’t understand us. So we take a year off from school and wander around in Europe trying to find ourselves. Actually, thinking more on this, one implication of this example is that you still don’t get it - you believe atheists believe in God but are simply angry at him. If that’s the case, please just read the responses in the thread. Atheists aren’t angry at God. They think of God like they think of Santa or Spiderman - not actually real, so nothing to get angry at. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/238 "2013-01-24T19:39:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > True…but not at the cosmological level, only at the level of stars and planets, and probably galaxies. > > The expansionary phase of the big bang obviously violates the laws of Thermodynamics. Space itself expanded vastly, and yet did not lose temperature to maintain a steady thermodynamic state. The expansion of space is an example of negative energy IIRC, and according to some theories in the inflationary era was the source of energy that matter condensed out of. The expansion of space being negative energy, matter being positive, and it all cancelling out for zero net energy. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/239 "2013-01-24T19:44:55Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > It happens all the time, like when we’re young and think that are parents don’t understand us. So we take a year off from school and wander around in Europe trying to find ourselves. I get mad at my husband periodically, but he still comes home every night. And if I get mad while I’m away from home, he’s still there waiting for me. > [@](#): > > It happens when we decide on the weight we give empirical evidence. To some our right hand is evidence of the genius of God. To others, what did God have to do with this? It doesn’t look that much different than the hand a monkey has. Empirical evidence does not start with the acceptance of the supposed genius of a supposed god. In my view, there is no god, so he did not create the miracle that is the human hand (or skin, or heart, or the feathers on a bird, or the petals of a rose, or any other wonderful thing). The fact that humans and apes share so many similarities is part of the empirical evidence for evolution. And I still don’t get what your point is about all this… ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/240 "2013-01-24T19:47:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …What? Are you saying “my parents don’t understand me” is similar to “my parents don’t exist?” All I’m saying is that empirical evidence doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Which “theory” it fits and how much weight you give it depends partly on how you feel about the theory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=13)