# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/541 "2013-01-29T08:07:56Z")
Actually, what is the point of asserting that all tools are amoral? Is this based on some notion of tools in their inert state sitting poised on the balance between equal amounts of possible good or evil use? Because I’m pretty sure that’s an unlikely scenario. A [thumbscrew](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew_%28torture%29), for example, isn’t especially useful for many kinds of morally good purpose, but it’s great for torturing people. Why bother saying that a device _only suitable for evil uses_\* is just an amoral tool. Likewise, there must be some tools whose potential for good uses vastly outweighs any potential for evil. Why bother saying these are neutral until someone uses them? \*Unless the amount of potential good and evil is _always_ exactly balanced for all tools, then it must be possible to find the extremes of imbalance. The thumbscrew might not be that specific device. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/542 "2013-01-29T09:02:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why does there have to be a god for our thoughts to be valid? I did precisely one philosophy subject at college and I seem to recall this line of argument. Some long dead dude came up with this half assed excuse for an argument which panned out to a suggestion that nothing could be meaninful without a god. I seem to recall the analogy around which his argument was built went along the lines of: _“Say you come across a rock with some scratches on it which look like words and form a sentence. If the scratches were actually carved by someone on purpose then it makes sense for you to have read the scratches as a meaningful sentence. If they are actually random scratches on a rock then all you’ve done is fooled yourself by taking as meaningful that which is actually meaningless. Similarly (so the argument goes) if there is no god then what your senses tell you - and your thoughts - are whargarble even if they appear to you to mean something”_ It is of course complete dribble. I said as much in a paper and I think I got a 6. Or maybe even a 7. For the paper. I seem to recall I couldn’t find a way to have nearly as much fun writing the second paper required for the subject, and my overall mark for the subject was pretty mediocre. Anyway, I think the above line of thinking is where our friend the OP is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/543 "2013-01-29T16:29:52Z")
This fits in this thread fairly well, I think: > **[Non Sequitur by Wiley Miller for January 29, 2013 | GoComics.com](https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2013/01/29)** > > Flo: You could avoid gettin' yawr boat stuck at low tide if you'd just check the tide chahts, Eddie... Eddie: That'd be a conflict of interest, Flo. Joe: Um... what? Eddie: I've got my own timetable that suits my agender, and I'm not gonna let some... ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/544 "2013-01-29T16:41:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s largely unnecessary to redefine words. It’s most unlikely that you are creating a constant stream of brand new concepts for which we currently have no appropriate words. > > Instead of redefining words on the fly, then being misunderstood, just use the right words to describe what you mean. Thank you for civilly explaining what the problem was. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/545 "2013-01-29T16:46:54Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Thank you for civilly explaining what the problem was. I’m sorry if you found other explanations rude, but people have been telling you this for at least half the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/546 "2013-01-29T17:45:55Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Thank you for civilly explaining what the problem was. > [@](#): > > “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.” > “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” > “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master - that’s all.” > Through the Looking Glass. Fuzzy logic doesn’t mean what you think it means. What do you think it means, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/547 "2013-01-29T18:21:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sorry if you found other explanations rude, but people have been telling you this for at least half the thread. Marley, I didn’t have a problem with you, it’s your job and you’ve done it well. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/548 "2013-01-29T18:25:37Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Marley, I didn’t have a problem with you, it’s your job and you’ve done it well. Thanks, but I don’t understand why you responded to that post like it was new information. If you have decided to stop improvising definitions and are giving up on the tortured analogies, maybe you can finally answer this? > [@Marley23](#): > > Can you explain how we are supposed to know the difference between revelation, intuition, being mistaken, or even just making stuff up? If we can say any opinion is “intuitive,” how are we supposed to have the foggiest idea what is true and what isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/549 "2013-01-29T18:41:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Thanks, but I don’t understand why you responded to that post like it was new information. If you have decided to stop improvising definitions and are giving up on the tortured analogies, maybe you can finally answer this? I really look at it as the need to use different analytical skills for different situations. When we are discussing tuning up your sports car, then of course empiricism is the right way to go. However, when you are dealing with important life events that are non-repetitive then different instincts take over. In addition to the senses that empiricist use I only add two more senses and that is intuition and revelation. In my opinion intuition is a winner here. In addition to what I’ve already pointed out earlier. The very fact that I can be creative and have new ideas, the ideas need to come from somewhere. A computer is unable to generate these new ideas. Without a God with some intellectual foresight, my new ideas would be pretty random. Also, if you ask Christians about when they first Knew God existed. I’m sure that some of them would say that they had attended masses, spoken with ministers, read the Bible, and prayed. Subsequently God revealed His presence to them. I’ve called it personal revelation, but other Christians may call it something else. Intuition and personal revelation can only be checked by results. It either makes your life better or it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/550 "2013-01-29T18:47:41Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Intuition and personal revelation can only be checked by results. It either makes your life better or it doesn’t. Do you ever talk to people for whom intuition and revelation didn’t work? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/551 "2013-01-29T18:52:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you ever talk to people for whom intuition and revelation didn’t work? Yes, by it’s nature, both intuition and revelation are subjective. There are plenty of people who felt God had let them down and have given up on attending church. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/552 "2013-01-29T18:53:56Z")
What if one person is inspired by God to believe that evolution is how God developed life on this planet and that she must actively work to keep it in the schools, while another person is inspired by God to believe the story of Adam and Eve to be the literal truth and to actively work to banish evolution from the schools? They _can not_ both be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/553 "2013-01-29T19:10:10Z")
What if one person is inspired by God to believe that they should kill off all the Catholics? I’m looking at you, Oliver Cromwell! ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/554 "2013-01-29T19:22:40Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > What if one person is inspired by God to believe that they should kill off all the Catholics? > > I’m looking at you, Oliver Cromwell! Not all religious people agree with me on this. But I don’t see the NT as being an answer book. The fundamentalist do and that causes a lot of problems. I look at the NT only as a guidebook that points me in the right direction to search. My God would not ask me to kill another over evolution or religious differences. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/555 "2013-01-29T19:25:30Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Not all religious people agree with me on this. But I don’t see the NT as being an answer book. The fundamentalist do and that causes a lot of problems. > > I look at the NT only as a guidebook that points me in the right direction to search. My God would not ask me to kill another over evolution or religious differences. So are you saying that people that claim to be inspired by messages that don’t agree with the messages you recieved are _not_ actually inspired by God? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/556 "2013-01-29T19:27:29Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > The very fact that I can be creative and have new ideas, the ideas need to come from somewhere. A computer is unable to generate these new ideas. Without a God with some intellectual foresight, my new ideas would be pretty random. Your brain is not a computer. Why can’t the ideas come from your brain? > [@](#): > > Intuition and personal revelation can only be checked by results. It either makes your life better or it doesn’t. You realize this is a useless way to evaluate things, right? You decide after the fact that it wasn’t revelation if it ruins your life, but you had no way to know that first - or if it helps, it was revelation. I guess you are forced to spend a lot of time hoping you are not throwing your life away and going into decisions with no information. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/557 "2013-01-29T19:39:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your brain is not a computer. Why can’t the ideas come from your brain? > > You realize this is a useless way to evaluate things, right? You decide after the fact that it wasn’t revelation if it ruins your life, but you had no way to know that first - or if it helps, it was revelation. I guess you are forced to spend a lot of time hoping you are not throwing your life away and going into decisions with no information. Again, I speaking about situations in which you can’t use the empirical method. Suppose you are thinking about proposing to your wife. Would it make any sense to take out your notepad and compare her against all the women you’ve known and then go out and date other types of women to make sure that your research has been thorough or do you ask God for his opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/558 "2013-01-29T19:41:15Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > There are plenty of people who felt God had let them down and have given up on attending church. Is their intuition correct in those cases? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/559 "2013-01-29T19:45:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > A computer is unable to generate these new ideas. Because it isn’t very smart, our computers aren’t that good. They can come up with novel solutions to problems, just not as well as we can yet; “computers cannot be original” is bad sci-fi, not reality. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/560 "2013-01-29T19:48:51Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Suppose you are thinking about proposing to your wife. Proposing marriage? Hopefully, your wife accepted a long time ago. 😉 > [@pchaos](#): > > Would it make any sense to take out your notepad and compare her against all the women you’ve known and then go out and date other types of women to make sure that your research has been thorough or do you ask God for his opinion? Yes to the first part. If you haven’t compared her against the baseline established by all the women you’ve dated in the past, you are a fool. “Don’t date crazy folk” is good advice. Problem is: how do you know who’s crazy or not? That comes from experience, i.e. the women you’ve dated in the past. If you are seriously considering proposing marriage to a woman, it DOES help to take out your notepad on human interactions and consider the likelihood she accepts. Presumably, you have also taken out your other notepad on yourself and had a good, long think about whether or not she would be a good fit for you. It also helps if it’s not your first date, so you have a pretty good empirical log on most of her traits, including personality, appearance, physical/emotional match with you, etc, which, presumably, you compare against a general baseline of human behavior and see where it tallies up against your own personality and traits. I suppose that 20 years after the fact, you can chalk all that up to “intuition”, but that’s a lazy way of describing what should be a well considered decision based on a multitude of factors grounded on empirical observation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=29)