# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/561 "2013-01-29T19:54:14Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Proposing marriage? Hopefully, your wife accepted a long time ago. šŸ˜‰ > > Yes to the first part. If you havenā€™t compared her against the baseline established by all the women youā€™ve dated in the past, you are a fool. ā€œDonā€™t date crazy folkā€ is good advice. Problem is: how do you know whoā€™s crazy or not? That comes from experience, i.e. the women youā€™ve dated in the past. > > If you are seriously considering proposing marriage to a woman, it DOES help to take out your notepad on human interactions and consider the likelihood she accepts. > > Presumably, you have also taken out your other notepad on yourself and had a good, long think about whether or not she would be a good fit for you. > > It also helps if itā€™s not your first date, so you have a pretty good empirical log on most of her traits, including personality, appearance, physical/emotional match with you, etc, which, presumably, you compare against a general baseline of human behavior and see where it tallies up against your own personality and traits. > > I suppose that 20 years after the fact, you can chalk all that up to ā€œintuitionā€, but thatā€™s a lazy way of describing what should be a well considered decision based on a multitude of factors grounded on empirical observation. I suppose I was just lucky then because I did very few of those things. My research consisted of speaking with my pastor and praying. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/562 "2013-01-29T19:58:35Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I suppose I was just lucky then because I did very few of those things. My research consisted of speaking with my pastor and praying. How many dates did you have before proposing? How many other women did you date before you met your current wife? Unless the answer is 0 to both, you obviously had some data to work with and it clearly influenced your behavior. Maybe you didnā€™t think about it in such clinical terms, but the fact that you considered speaking with your pastor or praying meant you evaluated the benefits of proposing marriage and sought additional data, e.g. your pastorā€™s input and whatever clarity you receive from prayer. You can lay all the credit on their feet, but you wouldnā€™t have considered breaching the subject unless you yourself already performed an internal risk/benefit analysis of marriage. Again, maybe you didnā€™t do so in a clinical fashion, but the evaluation of the empirical data obtained throughout your life was clearly performed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/563 "2013-01-29T19:58:52Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I suppose I was just lucky then because I did very few of those things. My research consisted of speaking with my pastor and praying. That only makes sense if your goal is to marry your pastor. šŸ˜ƒ Once again, I ask you: If two people are supposedly inspired to believe two entirely contradictory things, which one is actually inspired by God? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/564 "2013-01-29T21:11:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because it isnā€™t very smart, our computers arenā€™t that good. They can come up with novel solutions to problems, just not as well as we can yet; ā€œcomputers cannot be originalā€ is bad sci-fi, not reality. Actually, there is at least one example where, by using genetic algorithms, a computer came up with a totally new circuit design, which would be considered original if a person did it. And I think Iā€™ve read of computers coming up with unique mathematical proofs. It doesnā€™t happen all that often, but there are at least some existence proofs of computer originality. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/565 "2013-01-29T21:16:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually, there is at least one example where, by using genetic algorithms, a computer came up with a totally new circuit design, which would be considered original if a person did it. And I think Iā€™ve read of computers coming up with unique mathematical proofs. It doesnā€™t happen all that often, but there are at least some existence proofs of computer originality. To what extent is a Minecraft landscape ā€œoriginalā€? Honest question, I have no idea. Iā€™d heard somewhere that no two seeds are alike, and I know it doesnā€™t take pre-built structures and arrange them (at least in the landscape), but I donā€™t know if that makes each map an original creation. AFAIK, though, itā€™s arguable. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/566 "2013-01-29T23:05:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once again, I ask you: If two people are supposedly inspired to believe two entirely contradictory things, which one is actually inspired by God? That question has been asked. One more time my response would be if all factors were the same. Same religion, same parish etc. I would say they were both inspired by God because one factor is still different. These are two different people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/567 "2013-01-29T23:36:18Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > That question has been asked. One more time my response would be if all factors were the same. Same religion, same parish etc. I would say they were both inspired by God because one factor is still different. These are two different people. Do you not understand the word ā€œcontradictionā€? You would have the same god tell two different people two entirely different things that _ **contradict** _ each other. The only logic solutions are: 1. There is no god inspiring them, or 2. He is lying to one of them. After you look up the word ā€œcontradictionā€, could you please explain? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/568 "2013-01-29T23:38:02Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > That question has been asked. One more time my response would be if all factors were the same. Same religion, same parish etc. I would say they were both inspired by God because one factor is still different. These are two different people. That could lead one to conclude that there are 2 (or more) gods, or like a deist would say, god is not intervening at all over there, so we have just 2 humans with little sense. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/569 "2013-01-29T23:42:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you not understand the word ā€œcontradictionā€? You would have the same god tell two different people two entirely different things that _ **contradict** _ each other. The only logic solutions are: > > 1. There is no god inspiring them, or > 2. He is lying to one of them. > > After you look up the word ā€œcontradictionā€, could you please explain? Actually, this happens quite often. Many congregations are split on Gay marriages or whether we should be involved in a war in Afghanistan. It becomes a political issue that the church needs to resolve. Sometimes a church will simply say we wonā€™t take a stand on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/570 "2013-01-29T23:46:15Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Actually, this happens quite often. Many congregations are split on Gay marriages or whether we should be involved in a war in Afghanistan. It becomes a political issue that the church needs to resolve. Sometimes a church will simply say we wonā€™t take a stand on the issue. Donā€™t change the subject or try to transfer it to church teachings: How can your god give contradictory messages to different people? How can both messages be right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/571 "2013-01-29T23:46:41Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Actually, this happens quite often. Many congregations are split on Gay marriages or whether we should be involved in a war in Afghanistan. It becomes a political issue that the church needs to resolve. Sometimes a church will simply say we wonā€™t take a stand on the issue. History shows that many times the result is not eventual harmony but a complete separation. What logic told me, is that it is very unlikely that all churches would be correct, why they are not all joining the Pope in Rome? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/572 "2013-01-29T23:46:49Z")
New from ReligiCo the people that brought the Gish Gallop, The pchaos ppolka! CMC ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/573 "2013-01-30T00:19:20Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Again, I speaking about situations in which you canā€™t use the empirical method. Suppose you are thinking about proposing to your wife. Would it make any sense to take out your notepad and compare her against all the women youā€™ve known and then go out and date other types of women to make sure that your research has been thorough or do you ask God for his opinion? Comparing her to women Iā€™ve dated in the past sounds kind of stupid owing to the fact that Iā€™m not dating them anymore, so they are probably off the table. Notepad or not, Iā€™d be a huge fool not to sit down and put a lot of careful thought into what I know about her and whether or not we would work together in a lifelong relationship. Of course ideally Iā€™ve thought about that long before Iā€™m on point of proposing. And that observation-based method sounds much more useful than praying- but ultimately praying is just asking yourself in the third person. > [@pchaos](#): > > That question has been asked. One more time my response would be if all factors were the same. Same religion, same parish etc. I would say they were both inspired by God because one factor is still different. These are two different people. To review: divine revelation isnā€™t consistent at all, you canā€™t know if itā€™s right ahead of time, and itā€™s just as valid as empirical knowledge. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/574 "2013-01-30T00:42:28Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > To what extent is a Minecraft landscape ā€œoriginalā€? > > Honest question, I have no idea. Iā€™d heard somewhere that no two seeds are alike, and I know it doesnā€™t take pre-built structures and arrange them (at least in the landscape), but I donā€™t know if that makes each map an original creation. AFAIK, though, itā€™s arguable. Donā€™t know Minecraft, but I bet there is some algorithmic way of generating landscapes with certain constraints and randomness inserted. For an example I know about, test programs for new processors are generated pseudo-randomly in a similar way, and they are often better than manually generated programs. But I wouldnā€™t really call them original creations. My examples were not generated algorithmically at all, but from trying and evaluating different possibilities and moving towards the best within those tried. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/575 "2013-01-30T02:36:07Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I really look at it as the need to use different analytical skills for different situations. When we are discussing tuning up your sports car, then of course empiricism is the right way to go. However, when you are dealing with important life events that are non-repetitive then different instincts take over. In addition to the senses that empiricist use I only add two more senses and that is intuition and revelation. > > In my opinion intuition is a winner here. In addition to what Iā€™ve already pointed out earlier. The very fact that I can be creative and have new ideas, the ideas need to come from somewhere. A computer is unable to generate these new ideas. Without a God with some intellectual foresight, my new ideas would be pretty random. > > Also, if you ask Christians about when they first Knew God existed. Iā€™m sure that some of them would say that they had attended masses, spoken with ministers, read the Bible, and prayed. Subsequently God revealed His presence to them. Iā€™ve called it personal revelation, but other Christians may call it something else. > > Intuition and personal revelation can only be checked by results. It either makes your life better or it doesnā€™t. Iā€™m still trying to figure out how intuition and (now) ā€˜personalā€™ revelation are ā€˜sensesā€™ - ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/576 "2013-01-30T08:29:32Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Iā€™m still trying to figure out how intuition and (now) ā€˜personalā€™ revelation are ā€˜sensesā€™ - I shall boldly propose that intuition is a convergence of background noise thought processes (too subtle to really be noticed, but slightly above actual subconscious, if such a level is possible) triggered by an environmental or imperative stimulus. Revelation is rather functionally similar to intuition, but it has a fantastic/delusional character to it. If one cannot easily imagine or perceive the cognitive origins of these effects, I could see how they might be mislabeled ā€œsensesā€. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/577 "2013-01-30T13:26:15Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Iā€™m still trying to figure out how intuition and (now) ā€˜personalā€™ revelation are ā€˜sensesā€™ - Well, I suggest you consult the Bible before speaking to the right people and praying on it ā€“ at which point youā€™ll decide itā€™s a sense, as per your personal revelation from God. Or youā€™ll decide itā€™s not a sense, as per your personal revelation from God. You can use the same method to get a personal revelation from God as to whether **pchaos** (a) is incorrect about a whole bunch of stuff in general, and (b) has never actually received a personal revelation from God in particular. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/578 "2013-01-30T14:06:39Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Revelation is rather functionally similar to intuition, but it has a fantastic/delusional character to it. If one cannot easily imagine or perceive the cognitive origins of these effects, I could see how they might be mislabeled ā€œsensesā€. Why is it delusional. The bible is 2 thousand years of wisdom. Members of my parish are people I listen to and respect. My minister understands the personal struggles I go through. When I pray, I renew my dialogue with God. Add all this together I consider it another ā€œsenseā€ that is perhaps as valid as any. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/579 "2013-01-30T14:10:28Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Why is it delusional. The bible is 2 thousand years of wisdom. Members of my parish are people I listen to and respect. My minister understands the personal struggles I go through. When I pray, I renew my dialogue with God. Add all this together I consider it another ā€œsenseā€ that is perhaps as valid as any. And weā€™ll add ā€œsenseā€ to the rapidly growing list of words you donā€™t know the definition of. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/580 "2013-01-30T14:28:26Z")
Okay, itā€™s not a physical sense like the others. Itā€™s simply a sense of whatā€™s right and wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=30)