# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/581 "2013-01-30T14:44:21Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > There are plenty of people who felt God had let them down and have given up on attending church. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is their intuition correct in those cases? I would like an answer to this, please. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/582 "2013-01-30T15:00:43Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I would like an answer to this, please. Intuition is a very personal matter. Most people that leave a church do so after much reflection. So I would say that it is more likely that you would leave a church based upon personal revelation. But I’m not trying to side-step the question. Let’s say that you liked the Pastor and the teachings of the church, but for some reason you couldn’t stand the people. So intuitively it would be proper for you to leave the church. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/583 "2013-01-30T15:06:44Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Intuition is a very personal matter. Most people that leave a church do so after much reflection. So I would say that it is more likely that you would leave a church based upon personal revelation. > > But I’m not trying to side-step the question. Let’s say that you liked the Pastor and the teachings of the church, but for some reason you couldn’t stand the people. So intuitively it would be proper for you to leave the church. Does that intuition/revelation come from god? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/584 "2013-01-30T15:12:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Does that intuition/revelation come from god? Yes. If we could ask Martin Luther why he decided to split from the Church, he might have said God told him to. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/585 "2013-01-30T15:46:01Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes. If we could ask Martin Luther why he decided to split from the Church, he might have said God told him to. You really should do more research before citing examples. Martin Luther wrote what is now called “The 95 Theses”. It’s a pretty well known bit of work, and there are several well known paintings depicting Luther nailing them to a church door. When actually asked (before he was asked, actually), Martin Luther didn’t say “God told me to”. He backed up his position with no small amount of scholarship and hard thought. Unlike your claimed version of “intuition” or “inspiration” or whatever, your actual idea of divine “inspiration” seems to be more like “God as a Hollywood studio exec” all the while ignoring the writers, producers, directors, stagehands, and actors who actually put the movie together. It’s not a flattering picture of God you paint. And it does a disservice to the hundreds of years of very serious thought Christian philosophers have put into trying to bring faith and God into a rational universe. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/586 "2013-01-30T15:53:24Z")
Okay, I exaggerated, Martin Luther might have said I’m a servant of God and following his will. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/587 "2013-01-30T15:56:39Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Okay, I exaggerated, Martin Luther might have said I’m a servant of God and following his will. You are a fine example of what happens when you rely on inspiration instead of education. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/588 "2013-01-30T16:00:25Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Okay, I exaggerated, Martin Luther might have said I’m a servant of God and following his will. So what? Instead of leaving it at that, he still backed up his “inspiration” with scholarship. You’d rather he left it at “God told me so”, but it didn’t happen. And, in fact, it rarely happens. A couple thousand years of Christian philosophers is darned good evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/589 "2013-01-30T16:21:26Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes. If we could ask Martin Luther why he decided to split from the Church, he might have said God told him to. And if my intuition tells me there is no god, does that come from god as well? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/590 "2013-01-30T16:26:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And if my intuition tells me there is no god, does that come from god as well? No. That’s why I brought up the topic of a “specialized intuition.” People should only rely on intuition if they have developed an area of expertise. For instance, Magic Johnson’s intuition in basketball. Bill Clinton’s intuition in politics and so on. If it’s your first time playing basketball. It’s not a good idea to rely on intuition. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/591 "2013-01-30T16:36:55Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > No. That’s why I brought up the topic of a “specialized intuition.” People should only rely on intuition if they have developed an area of expertise. For instance, Magic Johnson’s intuition in basketball. Bill Clinton’s intuition in politics and so on. > > If it’s your first time playing basketball. It’s not a good idea to rely on intuition. So what area of expertise would I need in order to rely on my intuition that there is no god? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/592 "2013-01-30T16:51:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are a fine example of what happens when you rely on inspiration instead of education. nm - keeping this in my bag of responses - right up there with “Thats the kind of idea that makes a bad idea stand up and take notice” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/593 "2013-01-30T16:52:07Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Why is it delusional. Because there’s nobody doing the revealing. > [@](#): > > The bible is 2 thousand years of wisdom. While you can find good advice in there, there’s plenty of stuff in there that isn’t wise or even ethical. Much of it is the historical claims and rules of one tribe, not a list of advice or wisdom, really. > [@pchaos](#): > > No. That’s why I brought up the topic of a “specialized intuition.” People should only rely on intuition if they have developed an area of expertise. I think this is the first time you’ve said “specialized intuition,” and I don’t think this matches what you were saying earlier. Previously you were saying revelation and intuition were as valid as empirical knowledge. Now you’re saying that’s true only if you have a great deal of expertise and experience. So are intuition and revelation really that great? It sounds like you’re saying they are only useful in specific situations and when you have a strong base of knowledge to draw on. You know what? With regard to intuition, I think that’s entirely true. I just think you are insisting it is some kind of special knowledge that perhaps only religious people can use, and you’re wrong. We all have and use intuition on a regular basis, and it does not exist independent from empirical knowledge. Revelation, on the other hand, is basically talking to yourself and saying it’s someone else. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/594 "2013-01-30T16:54:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So what area of expertise would I need in order to rely on my intuition that there is no god? Well, if you are an atheist, I doubt if you would say that God told you that He didn’t exist. If you were a scientist…I suppose you would say the latest experiments and theories indicate that God doesn’t exist. That would be intuition coming from your area of expertise. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/595 "2013-01-30T17:04:10Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well, if you are an atheist, I doubt if you would say that God told you that He didn’t exist. If you were a scientist…I suppose you would say the latest experiments and theories indicate that God doesn’t exist. That would be intuition coming from your area of expertise. So not all intuition comes from god? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/596 "2013-01-30T17:18:19Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well, if you are an atheist, I doubt if you would say that God told you that He didn’t exist. If you were a scientist…I suppose you would say the latest experiments and theories indicate that God doesn’t exist. That would be intuition coming from your area of expertise. God told me He doesn’t exist, but I didn’t believe Him. Rather bull headed of me, I suppose. And the proper “scientific” response is that there is no need to include the hypothesis that God exists in order to explain how the world is observed to work. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/597 "2013-01-30T18:37:47Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well, if you are an atheist, I doubt if you would say that God told you that He didn’t exist. Can a Jew rely on his intuition – from God, even – that Christianity is false and Jesus was just some carpenter who made a lot of mistakes? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/598 "2013-01-30T18:43:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Can a Jew rely on his intuition – from God, even – that Christianity is false and Jesus was just some carpenter who made a lot of mistakes? Yes, it’s rational and intuitive. Different premises, different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/599 "2013-01-30T18:54:22Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes, it’s rational and intuitive. Different premises, different conclusions. Not rational-and I’m using the real definition of the word “rational”, not yours. It is a contradiction for a god to tell one person that Jesus is the his son and to tell another person that he isn’t. 1. Either your god is lying to somebody, or 2. There is more than one god at work here, or 3. There is no god. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/600 "2013-01-30T19:01:27Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > The bible is 2 thousand years of wisdom. Maybe you haven’t actually, you know, _read it._ What’s wisdom isn’t original, and what’s original isn’t wisdom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=31)