# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/641 "2013-02-03T20:11:34Z")
> [@coolandgreen1](#): > > I would reason that if life evolved on it’s own then we would reproduce independently. As it is in every thing there are 2 sexes, male and female. I just can’t see one lump of goo evolving into a male and another lump of goo evolving into a female so that they could get together and procreate. Whitch came first? The chicken or the egg? Had to be a rooster and a hen formed at the same time. As it turns out, there are people that look at dubious claims like creationism and they put together sites that categorize points that in reality are so old that the last time they heard it they fell laughing out of their dinosaurs. 🙂 The ignorance is in not being aware of sites that already reported on old points and the reply that scientists already made many years ago. In this case the place to check is [Talkorigins.org](http://Talkorigins.org): > **[CB350: The origin of sex](http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB350.html)** > [@](#): > > Response: > > ``` > The variety of life cycles is very great. It is not simply a matter of being sexual or asexual. **There are many intermediate stages.** A gradual origin, with each step favored by natural selection, is possible (Kondrashov 1997). The earliest steps involve single-celled organisms exchanging genetic information; they need not be distinct sexes. Males and females most emphatically would not evolve independently. Sex, by definition, depends on both male and female acting together. As sex evolved, there would have been some incompatibilities causing sterility (just as there are today), but these would affect individuals, not whole populations, and the genes that cause such incompatibility would rapidly be selected against. > > Many hypotheses have been proposed for the evolutionary advantage of sex (Barton and Charlesworth 1998). There is good experimental support for some of these, including resistance to deleterious mutation load (Davies et al. 1999; Paland and Lynch 2006) and more rapid adaptation in a rapidly changing environment, especially to acquire resistance to parasites (Sá Martins 2000). > > ``` > > References: > > ``` > Barton, N. H. and B. Charlesworth, 1998. Why sex and recombination? Science 281: 1986-1990. > Davies, E. K., A. D. Peters and P. D. Keightley, 1999. High frequency of cryptic deleterious mutations in Caenorhabditis elegans. Science 285: 1748-1751. > Kondrashov, Alexey S., 1997. Evolutionary genetics of life cycles. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 28: 391-435. > Paland, Susanne and Michael Lynch. 2006. Transitions to asexuality result in excess amino acid substitutions. Science 311: 990-992. See also: Nielsen, Rasmus. 2006. Why sex? Science 311: 960-961. > Sá Martins, J. S., 2000. Simulated coevolution in a mutating ecology. Physical Review E 61(3): R2212-R2215. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/642 "2013-02-03T20:14:38Z")
> [@coolandgreen1](#): > > As it is in every thing there are 2 sexes, male and female. That’s not even close to true. Do you think there are male and female amoebas? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/643 "2013-02-03T20:19:17Z")
Missed the edit window to add this: Think about it, when replies can be \*\*categorized \*\*and organized with supporting science it is IMHO a powerful sign that discussions in scientific circles already took place many, many times before, and the old points from pseudo science are essentially discredited. We can figure out the current state of affairs in scientific circles with little problem in the era of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/644 "2013-02-04T00:48:16Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > The Bible is not a High School textbook, although atheists treat it in that manner to denigrate it. It is a 2000 year search for spiritual answers. A search which atheists avoid like the plague. Oh, really. So I guess I was _avoiding_ it by learning to _read_ it in the original Greek, then? Argument _FAIL!_ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/645 "2013-02-04T02:39:02Z")
> [@coolandgreen1](#): > > . . . Had to be a rooster and a hen formed at the same time. Actually, no; there are lizards that reproduce both sexually and asexually, depending on circumstances. Sometimes, two lizards get together and mate; at other times, the female simply lays an egg, which hatches into a young female lizard. The intermediate form [is alive today, right now, in a desert not far from here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Reptiles) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/646 "2013-02-04T04:03:53Z")
> [@coolandgreen1](#): > > I would reason that if life evolved on it’s own then we would reproduce independently. As it is in every thing there are 2 sexes, male and female. I just can’t see one lump of goo evolving into a male and another lump of goo evolving into a female so that they could get together and procreate. Whitch came first? The chicken or the egg? Had to be a rooster and a hen formed at the same time. Where you by any chance homeschooled? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/647 "2013-02-04T05:36:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Actually, no; there are lizards that reproduce both sexually and asexually, depending on circumstances. Sometimes, two lizards get together and mate; at other times, the female simply lays an egg, which hatches into a young female lizard. > > The intermediate form [is alive today, right now, in a desert not far from here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Reptiles) There are also several species that will spontaneously change sexes to assure progeny. seee - [Sex change - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change) ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/648 "2013-02-14T01:49:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Actually, no; there are lizards that reproduce both sexually and asexually, depending on circumstances. Sometimes, two lizards get together and mate; at other times, the female simply lays an egg, which hatches into a young female lizard. Aha…we’re not at the top of the evolutionary chain. That female lizard seems much more advanced than we are. At least…she does not argue with her husband on a weekly basis. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/649 "2013-02-14T02:02:53Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Aha…we’re not at the top of the evolutionary chain. That female lizard seems much more advanced than we are. At least…she does not argue with her husband on a weekly basis. Depends on who is doing the measuring. In some species the male bear the young. And we always have the praying mantis as an example. The male gives the female sex and dinner, in that order. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/650 "2013-02-14T02:06:03Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Aha…we’re not at the top of the evolutionary chain. Why are you bringing this thread back from the dead? Also, in the likely case you don’t know, there is no “top” to a chain, evolutionary or otherwise. There is no “ideal” evolutionary peak. Further, in case the implication is not clear, there is no “top” to the food chain, either. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/651 "2013-02-14T07:15:43Z")
Well, I can imagine it being quite a shock for someone, who has lived his whole life thinking that man is God’s special creation and the best thing he could come up with, to realise this is wrong. True, there is no real ‘top’ but there are a lot of things in which animals are better ‘designed’. What made me blink espescially is the realisation that we, as mammals, are inferior to birds in a lot of respects. In the evolutionary chain mammals came _before_ dinosaurs evolved. Birds, the still living dinosaurs, have better eyes, a better oxygen regulation and lighter but stronger bones. They can fly too. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/652 "2013-02-14T08:15:34Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > The Bible is not a High School textbook, although atheists treat it in that manner to denigrate it. It is a 2000 year search for spiritual answers. A search which atheists avoid like the plague. I don’t believe it’s actually the atheists who want the Bible to be treated as a high school textbook. It’s, you know, the \*other \*guys (well, the ones at the other extreme). ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/653 "2013-02-14T15:11:46Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > The Bible is not a High School textbook, although atheists treat it in that manner to denigrate it. It is a 2000 year search for spiritual answers. The only people who treat the Bible as a textbook are the ones who are trying to get Christian theology taught as science in schools. Atheists treat the Bible for what it is: a book full of mythological stories written 2000 years ago. > [@](#): > > A search which atheists avoid like the plague. This isn’t really true. Quite a few atheists, myself included, became atheists _after_ a spiritual search. I was raised Catholic, looked around at other branch of Christianity, toyed with a few other religions like Wicca and Buddhism, and finally decided that none of them had the answers. It’s been said more than once that one of the best ways to become an atheist is to read the Bible from cover to cover, and that played a big part in my move away from Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/654 "2013-02-14T15:16:06Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > True, there is no real ‘top’ but there are a lot of things in which animals are better ‘designed’. It depends on how you mean ‘designed’. If you mean there have been and current are species that may be faster or stronger or better sighted, that’s true. Many of those species are now extinct, leaving no descendant species. That’s not “better” in any evolutionary sense. Either way, it shows the dangers of applying anthropomorphism to science and how a poor understanding of evolutionary science can be used to promote all sorts of strange ontological beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/655 "2013-02-14T15:28:40Z")
I am closing this, at least for now. **pchaos** has another all-purpose thread about atheism going while this one has been dormant. We don’t need two of those threads at once and I don’t want anyone dropping out of a conversation just to post snark in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/656 "2013-02-18T02:56:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Being Start the Ball Rolling. Here’s the problem…if the Universe just developed in an evolutionary manner and let’s say it just happened randomly, then the thoughts of agnostics and atheists are just random thoughts and have little or no validity. > > On the other hand, if there’s a logical source (for convenience called God), that started the ball rolling then the thoughts of agnostics and atheists may have some validity. Of course, my bias is towards God starting the ball rolling… I have to agree with you. Distilled down: No matter how many BILLIONS of years you give it, no amount of time can cause structured order and then life itself to form from mere chemical matter and a constant energy source. Natural tendancies are toward dis-order. Energy alone cannot reverse that. The missing factor is intelligence. Something has to drive intelligent organization and nobody has ever discovered anything or any process that can cause this to happen otherwise. The intelligence emanates from God. Hence the concept of intelligent design. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/657 "2013-02-18T03:01:31Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > I have to agree with you. Distilled down: No matter how many BILLIONS of years you give it, no amount of time can cause structured order and then life itself to form from mere chemical matter and a constant energy source. The evidence does not support that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/658 "2013-02-18T03:14:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The evidence does not support that conclusion. And not even close. It is still a huge mystery to scientists. Nobody can illustrate a process by which complex intelligent order can form spontaneously from matter and energy over time. There is simply no known physical property that drives order and intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/659 "2013-02-18T03:16:42Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > And not even close. It is still a huge mystery to scientists. Why does that imply an outside intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/660 "2013-02-18T03:27:15Z")
Intelligence cannot form out of nothing. And, while the properties of entropy are often mis-represented, nevertheless you can naturally see that things naturally move toward disorganization. If you don’t heep up with things in your life, your world becomes more disorganized and chaotic. An old abandoned asphalt parking lot will disintegrate and be filled with weeds within 20 years. Take iodine crystals and apply a heat source (energy) and not only would they not become more organized over time, but actually the iodine sublimes and becomes scattered. Over time it becomes further scattered and random. A planet swimming in “premordial soup” and constant sunlight isn’t going to somehow create any intelligent organization despite how many eons of time that pass. Sure, there are hypotheses that suggest this may happen, but NEVER has there ever been proof of any kind that this can happen. And what is intelligence ultimately? It is more than just successive order. It is probably order squared. Intelligence is infused into the equation and must come from somewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=34)