# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/681 "2013-02-18T04:12:30Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > If you’ve got the wrong religion, you actually have a lot to lose. > > This isn’t much of an argument. Pascal did it much better, and even he understood the flaws in his Wager. Yes indeed. Pascal’s Wager is alive and well and unassailable when applied to Christianity, under which faith the concept was postulated. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/682 "2013-02-18T04:14:52Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Yes indeed. Pascal’s Wager is alive and well and unassailable when applied to Christianity, under which faith the concept was postulated. Read your history better. Christians themselves assailed Pascal’s wager. Actually, many assail it to this day. And earlier forms of it existed in ancient Greece, Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity itself (you didn’t think Pascal was the first, did you? - though he did expound on it more than most). Besides which, it still does YOUR argument no good. You appeal to an argument you don’t understand fully and apply poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/683 "2013-02-18T04:21:15Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Yes indeed. Pascal’s Wager is alive and well and unassailable when applied to Christianity, under which faith the concept was postulated. Unassailable? I kicked it’s ass, and all you had was "Only God knows… " ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/684 "2013-02-18T04:23:44Z")
Antibob, general pronouncements do nothing to support your argument. I really don’t care if anybody had similar thoughts prior to Pascal. The point is that Pascal was Christian and the “wager” fits like a glove with Christian theology. If it was assailed by Christians I can only imagine that fundamentalists may have criticised it by not going further and in its limiting itself to a lowest common denominator formulation. But nevertheless, a Christian believer as all to gain and nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/685 "2013-02-18T04:24:52Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > But nevertheless, a Christian believer as all to gain and nothing to lose. Until Zeus fries you with a thunderbolt. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/686 "2013-02-18T04:26:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Unassailable? I kicked it’s ass, and all you had was "Only God knows… " Dude, seriously you need to keep that ego in check. Sounds like a legend in your own mind kind of thing there, pal! ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/687 "2013-02-18T04:27:43Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Until Zeus fries you with a thunderbolt. Dude! Now that was funny. 🙂 And in those circumstances I’ll still take my chances. All to gain and nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/688 "2013-02-18T04:28:42Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > All to gain and nothing to lose. No less than an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/689 "2013-02-18T04:33:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you know what a “quantum leap” is? An old TV show? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/690 "2013-02-18T04:35:51Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > If it was assailed by Christians I can only imagine that fundamentalists may have criticised it by not going further and in its limiting itself to a lowest common denominator formulation. But nevertheless, a Christian believer as all to gain and nothing to lose. Wow, where to begin. As I suggested earlier, read your history. The grounds on which Pascal’s Wager was assailed are well known, and it’s a simple Google search to find any of thousands of sites that go into it in detail. Your “guess” on the arguments against are so far off the mark as to be laughable. Seriously, read the history on centuries-old arguments before attempting to apply them. A Christian (and I say this as a Christian) has everything to lose if Christianity itself is not a correct religion. The point being that you must have faith in it to accept the wager to begin with. That’s a rather pointless argument to anybody who does not have faith to begin with. That’s simple logic. So, again, it does YOUR argument no good, as you don’t understand the argument and apply it poorly. And I should add that this is why I detest Intelligent Design arguments, which you are clearly attempting to apply here poorly. It’s a thin veil for Creationism and the holes in logic are so massive as to be explicitly embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/691 "2013-02-18T04:37:44Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Intelligence cannot form out of nothing. > > And, while the properties of entropy are often mis-represented, nevertheless you can naturally see that things naturally move toward disorganization. If you don’t heep up with things in your life, your world becomes more disorganized and chaotic. An old abandoned asphalt parking lot will disintegrate and be filled with weeds within 20 years. Take iodine crystals and apply a heat source (energy) and not only would they not become more organized over time, but actually the iodine sublimes and becomes scattered. Over time it becomes further scattered and random. A planet swimming in “premordial soup” and constant sunlight isn’t going to somehow create any intelligent organization despite how many eons of time that pass. Sure, there are hypotheses that suggest this may happen, but NEVER has there ever been proof of any kind that this can happen. > > And what is intelligence ultimately? It is more than just successive order. It is probably order squared. Intelligence is infused into the equation and must come from somewhere. > [@NormalDude](#): > > Best you can hope for is an occasional accidental rudimentary glimpse of limited order among predominant randomness, and it cannot sustain its ordered structure due to the tendancy to greater randomness. Can the human mind even imagine the quantum leap that would have to occur to make order from chaos? ANd then somehow survive and add to itself. There is no process that can naturally make this occur. I may revise my original conjecture and say that intelligent order is so cpmplex it is probably mathematically closer to “order-squared-squared”. A very complex structure of matter-energy. This may be your firmly held belief, but it is nothing more than in insupportable assertion. Making the claim–even believing the claim–does nothing to make it true. In fact, we have already seen self-ordering chemicals. Unless you can provide the evidence that there is something preventing intelligence from arising from natural development, you are merely whistling past the graveyard of 19th century belief. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/692 "2013-02-18T04:38:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No less than an atheist. Actually no, that’s the problem. Maybe you believe that, ok well, if there really is a God, he’ll let me slide on that? You’re certainly entitled to that. But… If the Christological message conveyed is true, then all God asks is enough humility to tame one’s ego and recognize the limits of human knowledge, honor God by at least considering his existance with faith in him. If you say screw it all I need is myself and “I don’t need no stinkin’ God” guess what. He will respect your free will and allow you to enter oblivion. After all it untimately honors ones free will. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/693 "2013-02-18T04:44:05Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > If the Christological message conveyed is true, then all God asks is enough humility to tame one’s ego and recognize the limits of human knowledge, honor God by at least considering his existance with faith in him. > > If you say screw it all I need is myself and “I don’t need no stinkin’ God” guess what. He will respect your free will and allow you to enter oblivion. After all it untimately honors ones free will. There are more than two alternatives, however. If you believe in the Christian god, and it turns out that the universe is controlled by the Hindu pantheon, you are just as screwed as an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/694 "2013-02-18T04:48:53Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Wow, where to begin. > > As I suggested earlier, read your history. The grounds on which Pascal’s Wager was assailed are well known, and it’s a simple Google search to find any of thousands of sites that go into it in detail. > > Your “guess” on the arguments against are so far off the mark as to be laughable. Seriously, read the history on centuries-old arguments before attempting to apply them. > > A Christian (and I say this as a Christian) has everything to lose if Christianity itself is not a correct religion. The point being that you must have faith in it to accept the wager to begin with. That’s a rather pointless argument to anybody who does not have faith to begin with. That’s simple logic. > > So, again, it does YOUR argument no good, as you don’t understand the argument and apply it poorly. > > And I should add that this is why I detest Intelligent Design arguments, which you are clearly attempting to apply here poorly. It’s a thin veil for Creationism and the holes in logic are so massive as to be explicitly embarrassing. Abob if you are going to try and assail my points, then please do not make multiple pronouncements with no backup and then just say that “I” need to read history. You cannot say that a Christian has everything to lose if it is not a correct religion. The whole point is that Pascal’s wager fails only when it is applied to religions OUTSIDE Christian theology. It is flawless from within Christianity. And it provides a basis for an atheist to consider Christian theology. In any event, you are contradicting yourself arguing from an atheist point of view and claiming to be “Christian”. Talk about poorly formed arguments! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/695 "2013-02-18T04:50:32Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Abob if you are going to try and assail my points, then please do not make multiple pronouncements with no backup . . . . Why not? He seems to be following your example. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/696 "2013-02-18T04:51:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There are more than two alternatives, however. If you believe in the Christian god, and it turns out that the universe is controlled by the Hindu pantheon, you are just as screwed as an atheist. Good logic, but I am ruling out everything except for Christocentric theology and for me there is only two choices. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/697 "2013-02-18T04:54:45Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > The whole point is that Pascal’s wager fails only when it is applied to religions OUTSIDE Christian theology. It is flawless from within Christianity. And it provides a basis for an atheist to consider Christian theology. Why do you think I asked you to actually read the arguments for and against? The year 2000 called. It’s called a simple Google search. Even within Christianity, Pascal’s Wager was and still is not accepted as a solid argument. Simply proclaiming it is “unassailable” does not make it so. It provides an atheist an argument to accept _some_ theology _if they already have some type of faith to begin with_. That’s not really atheism to begin with. > [@NormalDude](#): > > In any event, you are contradicting yourself arguing from an atheist point of view and claiming to be “Christian”. Talk about poorly formed arguments! View my post history. There’s 10 years of it that’s pretty consistent with what I’ve presented of myself here. I get that you’re a new poster, but you should really try a bit harder. Poor logic is poor logic, no matter if you agree or disagree with the conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/698 "2013-02-18T04:57:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This may be your firmly held belief, but it is nothing more than in insupportable assertion. Making the claim–even believing the claim–does nothing to make it true. In fact, we have already seen self-ordering chemicals. Unless you can provide the evidence that there is something preventing intelligence from arising from natural development, you are merely whistling past the graveyard of 19th century belief. Then the argument cannot be elucidated and won from either side, because there neither exists any proof that random particles of matter over time can escape that randomness and form anything as complex as life itself. If you have proof that such evidence exists, then please provide a link or reference. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/699 "2013-02-18T05:01:32Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Then the argument cannot be elucidated and won from either side, because there neither exists any proof that random particles of matter over time can escape that randomness and form anything as complex as life itself. If you have proof that such evidence exists, then please provide a link or reference. [Start here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/700 "2013-02-18T05:01:39Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Good logic, but I am ruling out everything except for Christocentric theology and for me there is only two choices. Then we are in almost complete agreement; the only difference between us is that I am ruling out one more god than you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=36)