# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/721 "2013-02-18T06:12:26Z")
Ooh a believer’s wandered in. Been a while since that happened. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There are more than two alternatives, however. If you believe in the Christian god, and it turns out that the universe is controlled by the Hindu pantheon, you are just as screwed as an atheist. Very minor nitpick. I don’t think the Hindu pantheon would care actually. They’re very accepting that way. In many versions of the religion, you don’t need faith to be free of the cycle of life and death. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/722 "2013-02-18T06:14:57Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Christianity, the only one that conveys the literally easiest path to eternity, That there is the nub isn’t it? The reason for both Christianity’s popularity and moral bankruptcy, encapsulated in one small sentence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/723 "2013-02-18T06:22:53Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Christianity, the only one that conveys the literally easiest path to eternity, faith in him, which is more than a sign of respect and recognizing ones humility, it is honoring God’s truth and acknowledgement of his power to deliver on his promise. God who conveys love and implores humans to love and forgive each other, to do to others what you would want done to you. > > Beyond the element of faith, and perhaps of some interest to unbelievers, there are so many excellent benefits emanating from what Jesus conveys that if just practiced by everybody even without an element of faith would still be of great benefit to humanity. No, not the failures of humanity to follow those virtues, but actually following them. Keeping egocentricism in check and really embracing the do unto other’s theme. We all come up short, but imagine a world where we all did that infinitely better? After Christianity took over Rome, that should had been it, but it did not work that way isn’t? Christianity lost its best argument when the church stopped burning people at the stake. My opinion as an Agnostic is that if organized religion will not disappear soon, then we all have to continue working to compel it to become more benevolent as the enlightenment forced it to become on many fronts. But, **there is still a lot** that Christianity needs to learn about humanity and tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/724 "2013-02-18T06:44:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Christianity is history’s greatest single evil. If I could make one change to history to make the world better, eliminating Christianity would be it. > > That’s the opinion of this unbeliever. You do realize that you share that exact sentiment with radical muslims and the church of satan, and all satanists. You must make your mamma proud. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/725 "2013-02-18T06:49:50Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > You do realize that you share that exact sentiment with radical muslims and the church of satan, and all satanists. So? The really funny thing is that without Christianity, neither of those things would exist; one reason that I consider Christianity the worst single evil in history is because without it, there wouldn’t be any Islam either. And Satanists are pretty much a joke, to the extent they even exist. Did you think you were going to scare me with \*Satanists? \* ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/726 "2013-02-18T07:07:04Z")
Dude I wouldn’t want to scare you. I couldn’t help noticing the commonality. But not surprising that satanists would be allied. Hopefully any believer seeing your very strange comments will be moved to pray for you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/727 "2013-02-18T07:18:09Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > But not surprising that satanists would be allied. Allies with who? > [@NormalDude](#): > > Hopefully any believer seeing your very strange comments will be moved to pray for you. They can do a naked rain dance while they are at it; it’ll have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/728 "2013-02-18T07:23:24Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Dude I wouldn’t want to scare you. I couldn’t help noticing the commonality. But not surprising that satanists would be allied. Hopefully any believer seeing your very strange comments will be moved to pray for you. Which Christian sect do you belong to? ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/729 "2013-02-18T07:43:49Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > That there is the nub isn’t it? The reason for both Christianity’s popularity and moral bankruptcy, encapsulated in one small sentence. All kinds of people on earth and so it’s a big tent, all are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/730 "2013-02-18T07:45:43Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > All kinds of people on earth and so it’s a big tent, all are welcome. Even Satanists and atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/731 "2013-02-18T08:02:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which Christian sect do you belong to? Christianity itself is already a sect. A judaist sect. Better ask what _sub_-sect. No wait… The sub-sects are Catholic, Orthodox, Syrian and Protestant. So what sub-sub-sect do you adhere to? You may pick from the following list ([from wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations)). 1 Catholicism 1.1 Catholic Church 1.1.1 The Latin Church 1.1.2 Eastern Catholic Churches 1.2 Other churches 1.2.1 Independent (self-identified as Catholic) 2 Eastern Orthodox 2.1 Eastern Orthodox Church 2.2 Other churches 3 Oriental Orthodoxy 4 Church of the East 5 Protestantism 5.1 Pre-Lutheran Protestants 5.2 Lutheranism 5.3 Anglicanism 5.3.1 Anglican Communion 5.3.2 Other Anglican Churches 5.4 Calvinism 5.4.1 Continental Reformed churches 5.4.2 Presbyterianism 5.5 Congregationalist Churches 5.6 Anabaptists 5.7 Brethren 5.8 Methodists 5.9 Pietists and Holiness Churches 5.10 Baptists 5.10.1 Spiritual Baptists 5.11 Apostolic Churches – Irvingites 5.12 Pentecostalism 5.13 Charismatics 5.13.1 Neo-Charismatic Churches 5.14 African Initiated Churches 5.15 United and uniting churches 5.16 Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) 5.17 Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement 5.18 Southcottites 5.19 Millerites and comparable groups 5.19.1 Sabbath-Keeping churches, Adventist 5.19.2 Sabbath-Keeping churches, Non-Adventist 5.19.3 Sunday Adventists 5.19.4 Sacred Name Groups 5.20 British-Israelism 5.21 Christian Identity 5.22 Miscellaneous/Other 6 Nontrinitarian groups 6.1 Latter Day Saints 6.2 Oneness Pentecostalism 6.3 Unitarianism and Universalism 6.4 Bible Student groups 6.5 Swedenborgianism 6.6 Christian Science 6.7 Other non-Trinitarians 7 New Thought 8 Messianic Judaism / Jewish Christians 9 Esoteric Christianity Mind you, they also have sub-churches.. Hope you picked the right one! ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/732 "2013-02-18T08:09:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even Satanists and atheists? Even child abusers and murderers. But you’re right of course, those aren’t real immoral acts. Just having faith will immediately make a rapist more deserving of heaven than an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/733 "2013-02-18T21:30:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Christianity lost its best argument when the church stopped burning people at the stake. I just have to say, sir, excellent 🆒 This is quotable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/734 "2013-02-18T22:25:42Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Dude I wouldn’t want to scare you. I couldn’t help noticing the commonality. But not surprising that satanists would be allied. Hopefully any believer seeing your very strange comments will be moved to pray for you. You do realize that atheists believe in Satan about as much as we believe in God - that is, not at all. Really believing in the devil should have gone out with spontaneous generation and phlogiston. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/735 "2013-02-19T01:37:28Z")
If anyone has anything to say to the OP, say it now. His pit thread is not going so well for him. He may not be able to respond, tomorrow. Poor **pchaos**. Banning is such sweet sorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/736 "2013-02-19T01:48:15Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > If anyone has anything to say to the OP, say it now. His pit thread is not going so well for him. He may not be able to respond, tomorrow. Poor **pchaos**. Banning is such sweet sorrow. As I just said in the other thread, knock it off. You can call people trolls and speculate about their bans in the Pit, but not here. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/737 "2013-02-19T01:48:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > . . . Christianity lost its best argument when the church stopped burning people at the stake. . . . ??? I would have said, instead, that was when they took one of their biggest steps toward theological maturity and civilized morality. It was a great step forward, and a net gain, both for them and for everyone else. Maybe I’m misinterpreting your point? ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/738 "2013-02-19T02:17:12Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Being Start the Ball Rolling. Here’s the problem…if the Universe just developed in an evolutionary manner and let’s say it just happened randomly, then the thoughts of agnostics and atheists are just random thoughts and have little or no validity. > > On the other hand, if there’s a logical source (for convenience called God), that started the ball rolling then the thoughts of agnostics and atheists may have some validity. Of course, my bias is towards God starting the ball rolling… This is an example of False Dichotomy: intelligence or “just happened randomly”. The processes discovered by science are NOT INTELLIGENT, but they are also NOT RANDOM. Gravity is not random: it is ONLY attractive. Chemical reactions are NOT random. When hydrogen and oxygen react to form water, you get ONLY H2O. You don’t get a random mixture of HO, HO2, H3O, H3O2, H3O3, etc. What’s more, evolution is NOT RANDOM. It is **contingent** in that what comes later is dependent on what comes after. Human history is also contingent. For instance, John Kennedy being President is dependent on the chance event that the bow of the destroyer that hit PT109 did not hit 5 feet more aft. If that would have happened, Kennedy would have been killed then and there. Natural selection is a 2 step process: 1. Variations (of which mutations are one form) 2. Selection. Variations is “random” in a very specific sense: random with respect to the needs of the individual or the population. In a climate growing warmer, just as many deer with longer fur will be born as deer with shorter fur. Selection, however, is the **opposite of random**. Selection is DETERMINISTIC. In the example above **only** the deer with shorter fur will be selected. Now, you mentioned “start the ball rolling”. Technically, this is First Cause. The uncaused Cause that starts the chain of cause and effect that is our universe. Currently there are 5 candidates for First Cause. One of those is God. Another is uncaused chance: quantum fluctuation. The other 3 are “logical sources” but they are neither intelligent nor God. One is Logical and Mathematical Necessity. In this, the logical equations that describe the physical universe also have the power to bring the universe into existence. Not “random”. In another, the universe just IS and is self-contained. It is called the No Boundary Proposal. Again, the non-random laws of the universe are the source, but in a different manner. The last is called ekpyrotic. In ekpyrotic there is an uncaused 5 dimensional universe. Kind of like God, this 5 D universe just exists. Non-random processes produce 4 D universes (like ours) within this 5 D universe. So our universe is caused but not by intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/739 "2013-02-19T02:24:06Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Even child abusers and murderers. But you’re right of course, those aren’t real immoral acts. Just having faith will immediately make a rapist more deserving of heaven than an atheist. Not according to Jesus. I suggest reading Matthew 25. There Jesus lays out rules for salvation. None of them involve faith, but they do involve behavior. No matter the faith of the individual, if that individual does the behavior, he/she will be saved. The Parable of the Good Samaritan is relevant here, too. Contemporary Jews did not consider Samaritans as being saved, because they did not have the “right” faith. Jesus says the behavior counts far more than faith. The Catholic Church in the Middle Ages proclaimed that salvation was by “works”. However, the “works” they meant were doing penances and buying indulgences for bad behavior – sins. Luther and Calvin’s reaction to that was to say that salvation was by “faith alone”. But the historical context is very limited: faith in God instead of the buying of indulgences as “works”. Unfortunately, some Protestants today have forgotten their own history and now make silly and unBiblical statements like “Just having faith will immediately make a rapist more deserving of heaven than an atheist”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/740 "2013-02-19T13:37:42Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > And not even close. It is still a huge mystery to scientists. Nobody can illustrate a process by which complex intelligent order can form spontaneously from matter and energy over time. There is simply no known physical property that drives order and intelligence. Let me introduce you to [Emergence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence). This is not purely theoretical, you should know - there is substantial empirical data to back it up. So, in short, you’re wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=38)