# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/741 "2013-02-19T21:19:04Z")
**NormalDude,** you don’t think God, Himself, is going to see past some weak, philosophical wager, siding on err but no real _belief_ on your part, rather than the actual faith (whatever that is) He requires to enter heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/742 "2013-02-19T21:40:27Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > **NormalDude,** you don’t think God, Himself, is going to see past some weak, philosophical wager, siding on err but no real _belief_ on your part, rather than the actual faith (whatever that is) He requires to enter heaven? Yeah, that’s rather problematic… [QUOTE=Terry Pratchett] This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, “Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it’s all true you’ll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn’t then you’ve lost nothing, right?” When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, “We’re going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts…” [/QUOTE] Really, it only makes sense if you presume that God is not the benevolent entity that they keep claiming, but instead the supernatural version of a power mad dictator who just likes to see people grovel for his amusement. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/743 "2013-02-19T21:46:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Really, it only makes sense if you presume that God is not the benevolent entity that they keep claiming, but instead the supernatural version of a power mad dictator who just likes to see people grovel for his amusement. Or, you can go with **NormalDude** ’s route and posit a God with an exceedingly low barrier to salvation, who requires faith, but not _genuine_ faith, and will let you slide on errors of ritual and dogma and forgive any and all evil deeds. Convenient, that, the God that makes absolutely no demands that you follow certain strictures or refrain from certain acts. The lazy, undisciplined man’s God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/744 "2013-02-19T21:54:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Convenient, that, the God that makes absolutely no demands that you follow certain strictures or refrain from certain acts. The lazy, undisciplined man’s God. Or what a friend of mine refers to as “The Mafia God.” ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/745 "2013-02-20T02:23:08Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Intelligence cannot form out of nothing. > > A planet swimming in “premordial soup” and constant sunlight isn’t going to somehow create any intelligent organization despite how many eons of time that pass. > Best you can hope for is an occasional accidental rudimentary glimpse of limited order among predominant randomness, and it cannot sustain its ordered structure due to the tendancy to greater randomness. Can the human mind even imagine the quantum leap that would have to occur to make order from chaos? ANd then somehow survive and add to itself. There is no process that can naturally make this occur. I may revise my original conjecture and say that intelligent order is so cpmplex it is probably mathematically closer to “order-squared-squared”. A very complex structure of matter-energy. The first just isn’t true. Chemistry will produce living cells from amino acids dissolved in water. Start here and we can discuss it in more detail: > **[Gazon synthétique ou naturel : quel choix pour votre espace extérieur ?](https://www.theharbinger.org/gazon-synthetique-naturel/)** > > Découvrez les avantages et inconvénients du gazon synthétique et naturel pour votre espace extérieur. Comparez coûts, esthétique, entretien et impact environnemental. Then you invoke “tendancy to greater randomness”. That is a distortion of the 2n Law of Thermodynamics. Since the sun continues to pour energy into the system, it’s quite easy to have increased order in the system. Have you ever heard of Gibb’s Free Energy? It’s an equation in chemistry and it demonstrates how a reaction can be spontaneous even if entropy decreases. In fact, DNA forming a d0double helix is an example. The double helix is more ordered than single strands, but the double helix forms sponstaneously. In fact, you have to add energy to get the double helix to unwind. What is more, natural selection is a process that **increases** information. In fact, it cannot do anything BUT increase energy. Ironically, this is demonstrated by an IDer – William Dembski. Enough information and you have intelligence. No, there are no gaps in the universe God created. God doesn’t have to step into the universe He created in order to connect members of that universe. Thinking He does is unBiblical and contrary to Christian belief. ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/746 "2013-02-20T02:34:14Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > And not even close. It is still a huge mystery to scientists. Nobody can illustrate a process by which complex intelligent order can form spontaneously from matter and energy over time. There is simply no known physical property that drives order and intelligence. Sorry, but there are known processes. Many processes get order out of chaos. Gravity is one. It gets the order of stars, planets, and galaxies out of the chaos of hydrogen and helium. Chemistry is another process. Chemistry constantly produces more order out of chaos. I gave one example of the double helix of DNA. Another is the folding of proteins into specific 3D structures. Even the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen to get water is a decrease in entropy. The processes of evolution – particularly natural selection – will produce intelligence. I suggest the books _The Origin and Evolution of Intelligence_ edited by Scheibel and Schopf and _Origin of Mind_ > **[Origin of Mind: Evolution of Brain, Cognition, and General Intelligence:...](https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Mind-Evolution-Cognition-Intelligence/dp/1591471818)** > > Origin of Mind: Evolution of Brain, Cognition, and General Intelligence: 9781591471813: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com as places to start. You are making an Argument from Ignorance. The information is out there, YOU are simply unaware of it. The problem with an Argument from Ignorance in the presence of the internet is that information is easily available. If YOU are ignorant, it’s because you choose to be. ---
**Author:** ![lucaspa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@lucaspa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucaspa)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/747 "2013-02-20T02:44:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Or, you can go with **NormalDude** ’s route and posit a God with an exceedingly low barrier to salvation, who requires faith, but not _genuine_ faith, and will let you slide on errors of ritual and dogma and forgive any and all evil deeds. > > Convenient, that, the God that makes absolutely no demands that you follow certain strictures or refrain from certain acts. The lazy, undisciplined man’s God. NormalDude’s god is not God. What he has done is perverted the standard Christian doctrine of mercy and forgiveness. Yes, God will forgive errors of ritual and dogma and any and all evil deeds. He will do this with **sincere repentence**. You can’t leave that out. Part of being sincere is refraining from those evil deeds in the future. Right? If you say “I am sorry” but then turn around and do the same thing again, how sincere are you? Yes, the belief is that God does forgive the unforgivable. God’s love knows no bounds. But God does require action from us – repentence. And part of repentence is changing – often with God’s help – our behavior. Faith is not a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card like Fundies try to make it out to be. "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ "Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ "And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ " ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/748 "2013-02-20T04:17:05Z")
> [@lucaspa](#): > > NormalDude’s god is not God. What he has done is perverted the standard Christian doctrine … In real-world, practical terms, how does it matter? If Ted Bundy prays to the defective version of Jehovallah, his god forgives him after each vile act, so he is refreshed and ready to do it again. To us, what he believes to be ok matters. Or there was that cardinal named Tomas, he did not even need to be forgiven, burning Jews and heretics was the lord’s work, how do you get past that? How, in fact, can you tell (this was asked upthread) that the scripture and doctrine you follow was not authored by the incarnation of evil? I mean, “Lucifer” means “Bringer of Light”, and Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and **the light** ,” how do you work that one out? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/749 "2013-02-23T05:42:45Z")
> [@For You](#): > > I mean, “Lucifer” means “Bringer of Light”, and Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and **the light** ,” how do you work that one out? Huh? Start by getting the quotation right. It’s “I am the way, the truth and **the LIFE** ” ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/750 "2013-02-23T05:59:45Z")
> [@lucaspa](#): > > NormalDude’s god is not God. What he has done is perverted the standard Christian doctrine of mercy and forgiveness. Yes, God will forgive errors of ritual and dogma and any and all evil deeds. He will do this with **sincere repentence**. You can’t leave that out. Part of being sincere is refraining from those evil deeds in the future. Right? If you say “I am sorry” but then turn around and do the same thing again, how sincere are you? Yes, the belief is that God does forgive the unforgivable. God’s love knows no bounds. But God does require action from us – repentence. And part of repentence is changing – often with God’s help – our behavior. Faith is not a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card like Fundies try to make it out to be. > > "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ "Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ "And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ " Hey lucaspa, don’t get sucked into the tricks and false characterizations by these unbelievers here. Seems you’ve been duped if you accuse me of saying things I never said. Also, you are wrong about the fundies. Fundies are legalists; they are not the get out of jail free card folks. With all due respect you should know better. I never implied a low bar or a faked faith. Again, don’t let these folks lead you astray, just because they don’t understand Christian theology. I think this lie they are perpetuating springs from my argument for the validity of Pascal’s Wager as it pertains to Christianity. They reject that there is any utility in Pascal for the atheist or the agnostic. I disagree. If an unbeliever can start by at least opening their mind to the possibility with the weakest of faith, dare I day even feigned initially, then the HS is no longer rejected, but welcomed to work that faith into genuine faith. Let’s not remain in such superficial depths of thought here, and be misled by these blind. I know God and how dare you misjudge that in your opening line! Pray for discernment. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/751 "2013-02-23T06:11:12Z")
> [@lucaspa](#): > > Sorry, but there are known processes. Many processes get order out of chaos. Gravity is one. It gets the order of stars, planets, and galaxies out of the chaos of hydrogen and helium. > > Chemistry is another process. Chemistry constantly produces more order out of chaos. I gave one example of the double helix of DNA. Another is the folding of proteins into specific 3D structures. Even the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen to get water is a decrease in entropy. > > The processes of evolution – particularly natural selection – will produce intelligence . I will grant you that there are physical and chemical processes that lead to greater order. Gravity as you say, via one vector: mass attraction. Ok on various organic and inorganic chemicals forming more complexity. But there’s random order and coincidental order and then intelligent order is of a different magnitude. The old notion thet a trillion monkeys typing on a typewriter for a trillion years will never produce the works of Shakespeare has never been dis-proven. What if, among other attributes, God \* is \* the driving force of intelligence in the universe? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/752 "2013-02-23T07:20:16Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > But there’s random order and coincidental order and then intelligent order is of a different magnitude. And guess what? The “order” of the universe is just what we’d expect from mindless natural processes. > [@NormalDude](#): > > The old notion thet a trillion monkeys typing on a typewriter for a trillion years will never produce the works of Shakespeare has never been dis-proven. What if, among other attributes, God \* is \* the driving force of intelligence in the universe? And what if two headed invisible goblins are? :rolleyes: There’s zero evidence for your archaic god, and no reason to believe in it over any other random entity. And enough random typing most certainly would produce Shakespeare or anything else, not that that’s relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/753 "2013-02-23T10:42:04Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > I will grant you that there are physical and chemical processes that lead to greater order. Gravity as you say, via one vector: mass attraction.\*\* Ok on various organic and inorganic chemicals forming more complexity. \*\* Right, now combine this with natural selection and a couple of billion years and what you get is more and more complex forms of life. > [@](#): > > The old notion thet a trillion monkeys typing on a typewriter for a trillion years will never produce the works of Shakespeare has never been dis-proven. To be fair, I’ve never much liked that one either. Without an editor you would never get past some random words making sense. But for the editor in the ‘writing of life on earth’ being some sort of deity we have found no proof, in our quest for knowledge. No proof at all, eventhough that is what people set out to find; proof of God. What we found is that natural selection is the editor. The editor is not intelligent but neither is it ‘random’. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/754 "2013-02-23T10:59:19Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > What we found is that natural selection is the editor. The editor is not intelligent but neither is it ‘random’. And the reason it isn’t random is because there are “rules” for lack of a better word, ranging from basic physical laws to (once you get into living beings) behaviors which enhance or detract from the need to survive long enough to reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/755 "2013-02-23T11:49:27Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > What if, among other attributes, God \* is \* the driving force of intelligence in the universe? I have no need of that hypothesis. There is already a simpler and evidence-based explanation for intelligence in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/756 "2013-02-23T16:04:05Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > I never implied a low bar or a faked faith. Low bar: > [@NormalDude](#): > > Christianity, the only one that conveys the literally easiest path to eternity, faith in him, which is more than a sign of respect and recognizing ones humility, it is honoring God’s truth and acknowledgement of his power to deliver on his promise. > [@NormalDude](#): > > If the Christological message conveyed is true, then all God asks is enough humility to tame one’s ego and recognize the limits of human knowledge, honor God by at least considering his existance with faith in him. Check. Faked faith? Perhaps not, but certainly an emphasis on Christianity as a safe bet to gain benefits, rather than having any value as a creed: > [@NormalDude](#): > > No better definitive answers have been discovered; it’s a safe, harmless and hopeful place; nothing to lose and potentially much to gain. > [@NormalDude](#): > > But I’d rather be on that side of the ledger than the other side. > [@NormalDude](#): > > But nevertheless, a Christian believer as all to gain and nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/757 "2013-02-23T16:08:19Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > What if, among other attributes, God \* is \* the driving force of intelligence in the universe? Then he’d have a lot to answer for. What is so special about intelligence that only God can be responsible for it? We’ve used it to create ingenious methods of torture as well as to cure diseases, so intelligence _per se_ hardly deserves to be put on a pedestal and crowned with a halo. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/758 "2013-02-24T00:12:28Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Start by getting the quotation right. It’s “I am the way, the truth and **the LIFE** ” > [@NormalDude](#): > > Hey lucaspa, don’t get sucked into the tricks and false characterizations by these unbelievers here… Which still fails to address the question. The evil one is portrayed as devious and cunning, _tricking_ innocent people into doing his bidding. You have here this doctrine that has been wielded to great ill effect, (ab)used to restrain progress and punish those whose primary interest is for the good of humanity. Victims who have been exhonorated by time and history. How can you reasonably attribute divinity to some ancient poetry that has not ever been able to substantiate its goodness? From all we can tell, all we have seen, you prince of darkness has had a hand in the authorship of your holy truths, their value is suspect at best. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/759 "2013-02-24T00:32:58Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > . . . To be fair, I’ve never much liked that one either. Without an editor you would never get past some random words making sense. . . . While it is perfectly true that the laws of nature do provide the convenient editing, in fact, a purely random process would produce the complete works of Shakespeare…it would just take a hell of a lot longer! If the universe were sufficiently large (!) and there were no limitations on energy, food, etc., then bacteria could simply multiply without limit. There would still be random variations, and, without competition, they would proliferate. You’d have variation without selection. In due course, intelligent life would arise. It simply wouldn’t arise out of Darwinian laws… ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/760 "2013-02-24T01:45:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > While it is perfectly true that the laws of nature do provide the convenient editing, in fact, a purely random process would produce the complete works of Shakespeare…it would just take a hell of a lot longer! No, it would not take longer. In fact, in the classical “infinite number of monkeys”, the process itself would essentially be instantaneous. The problem would lie in the fact that the complete works of Shakespeare (really, one might say the totality of all literature) would be spread out across a landscape of infinite typewriters, what would be time consuming would be gathering them all up in a coherent compilation. Then you would have to lay them on a stack of turtles … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=39)